Choosing Animals

[Pittylova]

I have a basic plan for my vivarium now, and thanks to the help of all here I have developed a list of materials I need and plan on starting tomorrow. However, while scanning this forum and other sites I have noticed that many use a variety of animals within their vivariums to create an ecosystem. I considered that previously, but wasn't sure if it was something that should be practiced.

I plan on putting a fairly large water feature within the vivarium as I would like to have a few small hardy fish. Any suggestions on what types of fish and other animals (water or not) that would go in an environment with green anoles that would work? I noticed some using fish, snail, shrimp and crabs for the water aspect. What are the pros and cons? What about land creatures...insects, etc?

[Evilwezal]

I just started a vivarium as well,so I'm not a expert. I think it depends on what type of enviroment your going for. I'm doing a Forest/woodland setting. I've added some rollypollys, and some small wood ants that was in a piece of wood I collected. I'm going to add some ghost minnows into my water pool as there native to my area. I've also got some water plants I've collected in there already. I'll prolly add some dried leaves once the moss has grown in well. it just adds a more natural look I think. Just my 2 cents.

[JohnEDove]

My water feature pond is not large enough for fish but I have added pond snails already with some kind of aquatic plant from my turtle pond. I too have added some Armadillidium sp. (Woodlice aka Rollypollys/Sow Bugs) and plan on adding Tropical Springtails.
The primary inhabitants will be Anoles so there are likely to be a few crickets wandering around for a while at times as well.

The bottom line for me is; adding Armadillidium, Tropical Springtails and snails will help process waste and keep molds and other pollutants in check. The Springtails will also provide some food for hatchling Anoles.

[Pittylova]

I was also considering the snails as a clean up crew. Do you find that your pond snails reproduce insanely quick? I've never kept snails, but one of my coworkers at the school has a large aquarium and bought one snail. Now she can't get rid of them fast enough. She solved the problem by buying a couple of little crabs which eat the snails (and any dead fish that make their way to the bottom). Do you think snails would go nuts in that type of environment? How about adding land snails (if I could find any I haven't seen one in about 10 years)? Do you find that the snails keep down the cleaning of the pond a lot...that would be very helpful, especially if plants are put inside.

Another question...do your anoles go for the woodlice/rolly polly bugs? I read some place that they shouldn't eat them, is that true? Also, how many springtails, woodlice, and crickets should you put in to start out? I guess it would be a per animal percentage?

What about adding amphibians to such an enclosure? Is that a big no no or would it be ok?

[froggsong]

Don't add crickets as an inhabitant unless you provide a food source for them, otherwise, they WILL snack on your anoles. A good tank mate (though I don't believe a beginner should keep a mixed tank) would be either GTF's or squirrel frogs (both come from the same area as the anoles, as long as they are green anoles). I think squirrel frogs (if you can find them) are a better choice if you plan to breed your anoles. A GTF could possibly eat a baby anole. If you have rollypollies (or whatever you want to call them) in the tank, your anole won't likely eat them anyway. The issue with them is that are are VERY chitinous. As long as you provide enough appropriate food for the tank inhabitants, they shouldn't try to eat the rollypollies. I don't think I would add ants to any tank, unless I was only keeping bugs. They can bite/sting/whatever they do your lizards. I had some get in through a screen top once and they bit my anole when they crawled over him and he moved. Another thing about adding other animals is that you have to be 100% sure you can provide for all of their needs at the same time. That would be easiest with the frogs I suggested, because they come from the same area. The anoles will be active in the day and benefit from UV (it is MUCH better to have it) but they can do without. I had a very healthy anole for years with no UV bulb. I think this is because they generally stay in the shade. I think you said you are putting in a water feature, and that is a must if keeping frogs, because they need to absorb water through their skin. The anoles will NOT drink from your water feature though, not even from a stream if you put one in. (though I am sure there have been exceptions to this rule) Anoles need to drink water from the leaves of the plants they live in. You also need to make sure there are plenty of plants that are strong enough to hold the anoles, because they will spend most of their time in plants.

Guppies would be good to add to the water area (as long as it is big enough), they are hardy and will eat tank waste if you don't feed them fish food all the time (though you should still offer it when the tank is fresh, and you should offer it every three or four days after there is tank waste they can eat). Any type of smaller minnow would be fine too. You can also add ghost shrimp to eat tank waste, in which case you can feed the fish once a day. As for snails to eat tank waste, I'd get ONE trumpet snail. They do not reproduce quite as fast as others do, and they do NOT eat plants like the other snails do. They will populate your gravel and come out at night to eat tank waste and algae. I have one in my newt tank and one in my fish tank. They haven't been there long enough to begin reproducing yet, but I have read that since snails have male and female parts, they can reproduce by themselves. Hope I was helpful.

[JohnEDove]

Originally Posted by Pittylova

1. Do you find that your pond snails reproduce insanely quick?
2. Do you think snails would go nuts in that type of environment?
3. How about adding land snails (if I could find any I haven't seen one in about 10 years)?
4. Another question...do your anoles go for the woodlice/rolly polly bugs?
5. I read some place that they shouldn't eat them, is that true?
6. Also, how many springtails, woodlice, and crickets should you put in to start out? I guess it would be a per animal percentage?
7. What about adding amphibians to such an enclosure? Is that a big no no or would it be ok?

1 & 2. In an aquarium I know they can get quickly out of control unless you have something that will eat them. I can’t say for sure how they will reproduce in the terrarium environment since I just put them in a few days ago but if they do seem to be reproducing to a point I don’t like I will throw in a Crayfish and allow it to control their population.

3. I don’t know anything about land snails at all. I live in a desert climate so we don’t have land snails or slugs. I would think that they would be an interesting addition though.

4 & 5. I keep Woodlice in all my enclosures with a damp substrate including my old and my present Anole enclosures. I have never seen the Anoles attempt to eat them and if they have it must not be harmful for them. Given the extremely high amount of chitin/exoskeleton that Woodlice have I don’t think that it would be good for Anoles to eat them though so I doubt that they do eat them.
Remember 99% of Anoles sold are wild caught animals with all of the instincts they were born with, even in the captive environment. They do encounter Woodlice in their natural environment so they would know instinctively if they are a food source or not.
To date I have not lost an Anole from impaction.

6. I threw in 6 Woodlice the other day to get them going and will likely add a few more just for good measure to be sure I have a viable colony started.
I am getting an order of Springtails from Josh’s Frogs in the near future, when he feels temps permit shipping safely, the entire culture will be added to the Anole enclosure. In fact I added some pasta to the enclosure today so there will be sure to be some moldy stuff for them to feed on.
As for the crickets I am going to start with just the feeders I put in for the Anoles. I will likely add extras once everything settles in. It is important to be sure to provide food for them as well, as Frogsong mentioned. Since I have a background in Archeology I have a nice collection of old bottles. I like to pack an aged bottle with Wardley Goldfish Flakes and place it like a discarded bottle in the enclosure so the crickets will constantly have something to eat thus being constantly gut loaded for maximum nutrition.
As you can see I have no exact percentage measurement for the other animals I add. I find these things eventually balance out so long as I have prey and predator present.

7. Personally I am one of those who does not believe in mixing reptilian/amphibian species in the confined environment of standard captive enclosures. I know some people get away with it but I feel it is safer for all if they are not mixed. Besides, I am creating this enclosure to allow my Anoles to reproduce at will. The threat of an adult eating a hatchling is high enough without my adding another predator that would surely eat them.

[froggsong]

I agree with John. If you ARE going to keep amphibians with anoles, you need to know how to care properly for each on it's own, and you need to have an enclosure large enough that they wont have to encounter each other unless they have to (or want to... my squirrel frogs liked my anole for some reason, and he seemed to like them. Sometimes I would look in the cage and the anole would be sleeping with his head right next to one of them). I have successfully kept a tank with species that I would NEVER recommend for anyone with ALOT of experience to keep, however, some of the species I had in the tank I feel could be kept together by some one with much less experience. I had ONE anole in a 36"x18"x17" with three squirrel frogs (and some other herps I don't feel it necessary to list here). They had PLENTY of room to stay away from each other. They generally all chose to sleep in the same plant, but they did have plenty of other choices. My anole was wild caught and full grown when I caught him, he was VERY healthy, and gorgeous. He had the longest tail I have ever seen on one of them (until my cat scared him and he got it caught in the lid and dropped it...). He lived a happy healthy life for the four years that I had him. He was around a foot in length when he still had his tail (much longer than any I have ever seem in captivity, though I have seen one that was about 7 inches SVL in the wild before... Tried to catch the big guy, but he was too high to reach. His tail wasn't as long as the one I had though. ). Good luck with whatever you decide.

And remember, about the snails, the trumpet snails wont eat your plants.

[Pittylova]

Thank you everyone for the advice. The enclosure will be 3ft high, 3ft long, and 2.5ft wide...I'm assuming that's a pretty large enclosure for the anoles. I do know about the plant misting, etc even with the water feature. I have been doing nonstop research on the anoles and some other reptiles and amphibians. Somebody mentioned to me that FBTs would be an ok addition with the size enclosure. What's your opinion on that? If I do decide to add something else in I will definitely be sure to research thoroughly. I'm not one to act on a whim

[JohnEDove]

I would not place FBTs or FBNs in with other animals due to the toxins that seep from them. Seep might not be the correct word but you get the idea anyway. Everything they come into contact with is contaminated with their toxins.

Edit; If you get a male and female Anole they can quickly produce enough offspring to fill that enclosure. My pair has produced 6 babies so far this year and she is about to lay eggs again. I am almost hoping she will stop breeding until next spring at this point.

[Green Ghost]

Originally Posted by Pittylova

...I plan on putting a fairly large water feature within the vivarium as I would like to have a few small hardy fish. Any suggestions on what types of fish and other animals (water or not) that would go in an environment with green anoles that would work? ...

I'm doing fish and frogs. The way I did it was to start out with a large water feature in the viv and put nothing in it. After about a year the viv stabilized and the plants grew out. Meanwhile I was monitoring the water quality (by testing). I never expected to be able to keep fish in the water feature and was surprised that the water quality stabilized itself. Anyways once I was familiar with what to expect with the water, then I went to get fish that would work well with that particular chemistry. My viv's water area was slightly acidic so I went with agile fish big enough so that they wouldn't get eaten by the frogs. I finally chose a pair of Kribensis.

I have a saltwater tank now and I've had freshwater in the past also. It's more than 10 years I'm keeping fish. It's one thing to regulate water quality when the entire tank is filled with water but it's quite another to try to regulate water quality with a water area in a viv and have also have a land area affecting the water quality at the same time. Only dealing with a tank full of water is sometimes difficult and unpredictable - I'd say it might even be an art. Throw in having the land area affecting water quality at the same time.... you see what I'm getting at.

My two cents is go slow and take your time. No need to rush things. You'll set your viv up and you'll see how it evolves. Then your options will be clearer. I think it's misguided to mix species in a new viv with out any real experience to back you up. Odds are very much against it working out without any deaths. Go with one species to start and see how that works out.

Just some info: Water snails you can get rid of by putting a piece of lettuce in the water area. They will all go for it. Then just take out the lettuce leaf (with the snails on there) and toss it or whatever you want to do with them.

Land snails are hermaphrodites but need another snail to reproduce, they can't reach thier own body parts to fertilize themselves. Many land snails are herbivores and will eat your plants.

Earthworms are good for substrate also but need at least a couple of inches of substrate mix.