new to vivariums w/ questions!

[RibbitMemphis]

Hey I'm Andrew, I live in Memphis, TN.

I am very interested in starting a tropical vivarium and putting 2 RETFs, male and female in it. This wouldnt be my first frog to keep but the type is completely different as i kept a completely water dwelling frog w/ some small fish previously.

I have been looking at tank dimensions and was thinking of going 36 x 18 x 17, about 50gal. I have researched and researched and am just looking for any advice and tips for beginning this kind of project.

I'm sure I'll have more questions but I dont expect to be spoon fed info because i enjoy the research.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Green Ghost]

I keep RETF's.

What did you want to ask?

[RibbitMemphis]

What sort of tropical plants do RETFs like most? what kind of bottom is best for a tank with them?

[Green Ghost]

That's a great tank size. Opinions differ but personally I wouldn't work with anything less than 3 ft, either.

I think with the right knowledge and care pretty much any bottom/substrate could work. Even water. What I'd recommend though, since it's your first RETFs, is go with at least a 70% land bottom.

I'd go with the standard LECA/Weed barrier/sphagnum/soil - eco earth mix substrate but make the water table at least 3 inches.

For plants you want some with stems thick enough to hold the weight of the frog without it drooping to the ground when the frog is on it. RETFs sleep on the undersides of the leaves during the daytime. I have orchids epiphitically attatched to branches. Orchids generally have wide stiff leaves. I'll try to get the name of another plant I have in there. Don't know it off the top of my head.

[froggsong]

I would recommend that you turn the tank on end to make it nice and tall. These guys are arboreal, and with a tank that size, there is still plenty of land room. If you wanted to make more land with it turned on end that way, you could make a platform partway up to plant more plants or whatever. My CWD is in a tank with those exact dimensions, so I have a pretty good idea how it would look turned on the side. If you keep it flat, it wont really have enough room up and down for arboreal frogs. I had my golden in there at one time, and it was not tall enough. After I move my CWD into a permanent 6'x3'x6' enclosure, I am going to turn the tank on end and put the golden back in there and get another and try to breed them. They actually have a male at my petco. Have you taken a look at the golden tree frogs (Polypedates leucomystax)? They have cool knobby hips, lol... That's why I bought my Joe (too late to give it a female name now, lol). Also, the tree frogs you have in your back yard would be an excellent starter frog, and are very forgiving, as well as friendly. Plus, you already know all their requirements, and you can start with plants from your yard. You could put three of them in a tank as small as a ten gallon (though bigger is definitely better) and practice for a couple of months and then get the RETF's. Regardless of what you do, take a look at my frog/toad tank experiment and check out the landings I made with GS, my frogs LOVE them. The toads (I got another FBT) love them too, especially the ones they can climb out of the water onto. It is a good way to have a larger water area, yet still have plenty of land. I cut planting areas out of them as well so I could plant plants directly into the GS (I discovered when I replanted the tank that you should take a long nail and drive some drain holes up through the bottom if you do that... When I installed the water feature, I nearly drowned some dieffenbachia... well not really, you can grow dieffenbachia underwater... I just put some in my aquarium a couple of days ago and it is doing great). I really like the landings, they look great and like I said, the frogs love them. You can either make them directly on the glass, or on something like foil or wax paper (takes a long time to sure if you don't do it in layers...). Anyway, good luck! Make sure you post a log when you get started.

[RibbitMemphis]

Thanks for the replies.
Funny about the name, you could always rename Joe to Joesephina, haha.

ok so i've decided to go with 36 x 18 x 25 Tall instead. to give them plenty of height as well as ground. I want to keep the bottom mostly land.

in regards to the substrate. I would think that sphagnum moss wouldn't be good for tree frogs as it could be a bit rough on the soft bellies?
Would Dicranum or Riccia be better? softer and greener?

I have also been looking at a number of orchids and vines

in regards to false bottoms, do drain holes needs to be drilled or what? is there a link to something that can explain false bottoms in depth? I understand that I need small PVC elbows and flouscent light egg crates to go on top, but other than that idk.

glass top or screen top? ventilation? humidity and temp?

Fog system or mist system?

also I want to put a small waterfall in somewhere, any suggestions for something like this? drainage? circulation of water?

Sorry for so many questions, I want to have the environment perfect before I even think of getting my little froggies. though i probably will attempt to keep GTFs from my back yard first.

thanks again

[Athen]

when greenghost mentioned sphagnum moss i do believe he was saying in a layering effect by layering your substrates leca, sphagnum, dirt/eco earth in that order bottom to top what is does is it sets up your tank so that your water level will be the same all the way across your tank even under your land similar to our actual earth and the layering allows for drainage/ evaporation and if you are worried about the green sphagnum moss being too rough you could always use new zealand sphagnum moss it is yellow but it is a very very soft cottony moss and quite sponge like i use it in my CWD tank. my tank is divided in half with a large piece of drift wood and foam i then put down a 3" layer of gravel/leca. above that i placed a layer of polyfoam sheets so my substrate couldnt get into my water table but the water could get into my substrate above that i put about a 2" layer of new zealand sphagnum moss and covered that with about 3" of eco earth my water table is approximately 5-6" as far as the false bottom goes there is no need to drill drainage holes that is what the eggcrate with the screen on it is for it is designed to be able to achieve similar to what i did in my tank but to have more freedom with design since with mine i was pretty much at the mercy of the log to my freedom for the size/shape of my water feature once you cut out and shape your egg crate the process of setting it up is very similar to what i did with mine but the leca,gravel, sphagnum goes inside of the eggcrate false bottom then a screen or some other semipermiable material goes over the surface of your FB and you then build your terrain as far as a water fall goes the design fo that is pretty much all up to your imagination just make sure you have a pump that has enough overhead pressure to move the amount of water to the height/ distance you would like it in my CWD tank im using a fluval 2 filter/pump it is a 104GPH pump and makes a large tall waterfall quite easilly in my FBT tank i am building i am using a Exo Terra Repti Clear 150 Compact Filter which is about 50GPH and will make a smaller water fall but it isnt moving the water as far nor do i need as large of a water fall. as i said the design of the water fall is all up to you just ensure you get a strong enough pump and place it with in your FB and go from there

[froggsong]

LOL, yeah Josephina sounds good to me, but my husband doesn't like it, lol...

I STILL think you should turn the tank on end, even more so now, the more land area the better, but the HEIGHT is most important.... You could turn it so that the glass side is the front, and the opening to the tank is the side, you know what I mean? Then you could make a background that is nice and large on what used to be a side of the tank, and the bottom would be plenty large enough for a land and water portion... (25"x18" or 25"x18"x36" total) I'm jealous, I wish I had a tank that size, lol...

I use sphagnum moss for my substrate (no mixing). It is the kind that comes in a large bale... They have it at walmart. I think it is ground up, because when I have seen some other peoples sphagnum moss, I was like, that isn't like mine at all... Anyway, it keeps moisture well, and I have NEVER had a plant that didn't do well in it. I also like the way it does for the animals better than the coco fiber. I used the coco fiber once, and actually ended up sifting out the bigger strands because I just didn't like it and it stuck to my frogs more (which means more mess for you to clean up). If you are worried about there being any possible bugs or anything in it, you can throw it in the oven for a little while on 250 or 300... Just make sure you watch it. It might look cool when it catches on fire, but it smells bad and is hard to put out, lol.

As for the false bottom, you put the pipes down for legs, set the eggcrate on top (or have it attached to the legs first), mesh on that (I'm using window screen for mine), then most people use a drainage layer of LECA or pebbles (heavier), then your substrate (whatever mix, layering, etc YOU want based on the needs of your plants and animals. Also no fertilizers.). I tend to use just a layer of pebbles and a layer of sphagnum moss and just use plants that like alot of water, but that's just because I am lazy, lol... I don't want to have to do anything but mist and prune. All the plants I have had growing in this have done very very good though. I know it is what they use in those expanding seed starter disks, so I know it is fertile.

When you get everything set up, it is advisable to add some worms to the substrate to help aerate the plants roots and keep the soil fertilized. You can also add a handful of springtails to help with mold growth and tank waste (I think that's what they do, right?)

I mist by hand in all of my enclosures, but a misting system would be less work and likely less stress on the animals. Fogging is good too, just be sure to read some of the posts on the forum about the Ultrasonic foggers/humidifiers before you set one up.

As for the care questions and the questions about what type of top (or side if you use my advice and turn it on end, in which case a plexi door with ventilation holes drilled in would probably be great), I have never kept them, so I am not going to try to answer those questions. I do find that for MY frogs, some ventilation is necessary, but you don't want to much airflow because you loose humidity (your house is probably alot more humid than mine though, I live in WA right now, and it is dry here).

[Green Ghost]

Originally Posted by RibbitMemphis

.....in regards to the substrate. I would think that sphagnum moss wouldn't be good for tree frogs as it could be a bit rough on the soft bellies?
Would Dicranum or Riccia be better? softer and greener?...

Like Athen was pointing out, yeah I meant the spagnum would be part of the substrate mix being underneath (some even prefer to mix with) the eco-earth and soil. The idea is to be able to let the water drain away from the soil mix so that the plant's roots have something to keep them damp but not wet enough all the time to rot them. So if underneath it would never come in direct contact with the frogs. Should have made that clearer Anyways it's all experimentation and personal preference.

Originally Posted by RibbitMemphis

.....in regards to false bottoms, do drain holes needs to be drilled or what? is there a link to something that can explain false bottoms in depth? I understand that I need small PVC elbows and flouscent light egg crates to go on top, but other than that idk.

glass top or screen top? ventilation? humidity and temp?

Fog system or mist system?

also I want to put a small waterfall in somewhere, any suggestions for something like this? drainage? circulation of water?...

I see alot of people getting into the amphib/viv hobby and not really knowing what the best approach is in terms of building the enclosure. Can't blame them because there's not that much info out there and plus it's not mainstream - you can't go to your local petshop and buy some ready made kit... So it's more of a DIY type hobby. That being said you have to decide what size tank fits in your home and what your budget is. I mention that because when I started out I started all wrong and had to re-do pretty much everything. Looking back I feel like it was a little bit of a waste of time and effort. I wish I could have someone give me some ideas on other possibilities and options.

IMHO the cheaper ($$) the setup, the more care required to maintain, is what it comes down to (if you go with live plants and an eco-system type of setup).

I had a small submersible filter and pump in my tank and I had to clean it every couple of weeks. I had to move things around in the tank to do that and distrub the plants etc... I didn't like the amount of time I was spending on that and also the water quality in the tank kept fluctuating. So I drilled the bottom of the tank and put a sump in the lower part of the aquarium stand. It made it much easier to maintain the setup without disturbing everything in the tank and the frogs too. Also made more room in the tank. Of course it was more expensive.

So depends on how you want to go for your false bottom, yes you can use a submersible filter inside the tank but you'll have to provide for the a/c cord going into the tank.

You'll also have to silicone an add-on piece of glass to the top of your tank. (When it's turned on end it will be the bottom front) That will allow you to have an enclosure to hold the substrate of your tank. You could also drill that piece of glass to have a drain installed there.

You'll also have to build doors to close the front of the tank. Most people doing that use acrylic or lexan. (plexiglass)

Misting system might be a little tricky with no removable top but could be done.

As far as glass top you pretty much have no choice because if you turn the tank on end ....

Personally I'm not a fan of turning the tank on end, but it is one way of doing it.

Sorry for the long post.

[Green Ghost]

[quote=RibbitMemphis;8184] ... I understand that I need small PVC elbows and flouscent light egg crates to go on top, but other than that idk.... /QUOTE]

Also I just wanted to clear up something for anyone who's following along here... There seems to be alot of confusion about egg crates lately. It's acutually called "eggcrate" but SHOULD have been called "grating" because it's the eggshell color grating that goes on fluorscent lighting fixtures to diffuse the light. And egg crates (which don't exist as far as I know) should not be confused with milk crates.