Substrate question

postal · #1 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 08:09 PM

Setting up a new false bottom. No leaca/gravel/ etc.

The eggcrate is about 1" above the water level. I want the tank planted and moss- probably java.

I have chunky coco husk, and exo terra forest moss. I have course sand and carbon available if necessary.

I used the ABG mix last time around and I didnt like it.

Do I layer the coco then cover with forest moss, then place java on top of that? or do I mix the coco and moss?

Tiamat · #2 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 08:58 PM

i believe you could mix them. I hardly see layers of different stuff for substrats. but i see a lot of mixing.
I guess there are no set rules for that. If your plants enjoy a mix, why not.
I just want to point out that coconut substrate holds a lot of water. And i think, altought not a specialist, that some of your plants might not like the wetness of the substrate it will create. It kind of defeat the FB purpose to have such a water absorbant in there....

postal · #3 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 10:09 PM

The FB is for my water feature. I *thought* coco husk was suposed to provide good drainage though. The ABG mix in my current setup is a swamp because the fb is not high enough above the water level..

I used gravel on the eggcrate then the ABG mix and it's HEAVY and soaked.... Dont want the weight or thickness of gravel/leca this time around....

Tiamat · #4 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 10:24 PM

well, if your FB will be 1'' above water level, i don't think you will even need a gravel bed before your substrate. Otherwise, one layer of leca balls would be much better insteat. I know you don't like it but it is far less heavy than gravel and 1.5cm is not that tall....

I see your logic for the coconut. But in is a false argument i believe. Having water in the substrate or in the coconu, in the substrate, is pretty much the same thing to me.
But like i said, 1'' above the water level should not give you drainage problems. You shouldn't, then, have any need for coconut.

Fisherman 1991 · #5 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 10:32 PM

I know some people use Sphagnum moss, and that's probably what I'll use when I build a viv in the future. I believe they put it right over the eggcrate and screen. I've read sites that use potting soil, but you'd have ot find some without fertilizers and all that garbage

fisherman

postal · #6 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 12:10 AM

I dont understand TiaMat-

You mean because the eggcrate is so high, I dont need coconut? and just use moss, and plant moss on top?

My current tank, I pulled out the gravel/charcoal/ABG mix, and put coco husk only. I want to completely redo that tank after the new one is up for awhile and the frog moves. So far, it seems the coco husk alone gives decent moisture but still drains well. Its ugly though- and I only have creeping fig in the cocohusk-(only changed it a couple days ago- cant tell how the fig is doing yet) I want the new tank to be fully planted including live moss, and I'm not sure if coco alone is good for that...

froggsong · #7 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 01:13 AM

Is the coco husk you are talking about the bed-a-beast type? I know you said it is chunky, did you mean sortof like mulch? I use milled sphagnum in my tanks (I feel like I said that a thousand times! lmao Maybe I'll add it to my signature...

), and it drains fairly well, and if you generally only water by misting, it will let you know when you need to do a more through watering because the tank humidity will drop (it sucks moisture from the air if it is too dry, in my experience). From what I have read, the only benefits with coco husk over peat moss is that the coco husk wont erode as badly, and the coco husk retains moisture better and will release more into the air. I would NEVER recommend adding charcoal to the substrate for ONE reason (and I don't know why other people do), once it has absorbed everything it CAN, it will begin to release the toxins back into your substrate and water table. One of the reasons I use the peat moss is because it does so well for plants (and the cost, which is very low), it is the same stuff they use in those expandable seed starting disks. If the coco husk is doing well for you and you still have some and want to use it, you can just put a thin layer of some other substrate on top of it to hide it. Otherwise, I would just go with something like peat moss (it has just always worked SO well for me), and maybe mix in a couple of handfuls of medium sized gravel, just to give the roots something to grow around and help keep the soil aerated a bit. Depending on the type of plants you put in, you might want to mix in a little sand as well (some plants do better in sandier soil, like roses, if I remember correctly... I know you aren't going to plant roses in your vive, but other plants are like that too, and it was the only one I could pull out of the top of my head, lol). Definitely add a few earthworms (wigglers or nightcrawler, it doesn't matter which), and try to find some springtails. If you don't add the springtails, they will likely get in there eventually anyway, but it is beneficial to add them from the start. Other than mixing in the gravel and maybe a little sand from time to time depending on what I am planting, I don't mix any other soils in my peat moss. I do sometimes mix plant clippings into the soil when I replant, it helps to fertilize a bit. I hope that helps you at all... If you need any clarification or have any other questions, just ask...

postal · #8 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 02:43 AM

I'm not sure Meghan, I thought it was the peat that broke down and compacts and holds too much water in the ABG mix... (I put thant tank together in 2000- and just broke it down a few days ago)

I have the "exo terra" coco husk tropical terrarium substrate. I want to grow moss over the entire thing. It has chunks like orchid bark, and strings/some fine fiber too.

I'm not opposed to mixing in sand.

----edit----

Yeah- my springtail culture is pretty much crashed...(also from 2000) but I'll get some in there (and get a new culture in jan at the socal retile show) Peat not so good for springtail cultures either! lol!

It's amazing the changes in the hobby since 2000... new products, new idea best practices, many more people and more breeders making it easy to get supplies and animals.... We all had springtails in peat back then... and it doesnt seem like a good idea now.... nobody does that anymore thankfully!

froggsong · #9 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 03:43 AM

What's wrong with springtails in peat? I really haven't heard that it wasn't good, do you have more information? Or a link I could take a look at? I have been using peat for so long without any problems, I just want to make sure there isn't something even better out there for me to use, or possibly mix with it. I have noticed that it doesn't do as well if the tank doesn't get enough ventilation. It seems to spoil much faster that way... Going to drill more holes in the plexi for my frog tank tomorrow because it is just beginning to get that "uh-oh" smell again... I hope I can keep it from spoiling before I have to plant it again. It hasn't been in there long, and I set up a FB this time. Maybe I just didn't save enough springtails when I redid it for them to spring back up (lol).

Tiamat · #10 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 11:51 AM

coconut would work perfectly for moss. But i don't think it would be great for plants...I am not a specialist there, but i believe you will prefer a high humidity in the air, not in your substrate.

Postal, that is pretty much what i was saying. When froggsong talks about sphagnum, he gives you a better alternative i believe. Sphagnum will absorb humidity in the substrat. But when it get saturated, water will drip from it, and since it is the layer on the eggcrate, the water will fall back into the reservoir. With coconut as a layer there, it will absorb a lot more than what sphagnum can. Wich could end up with way to much humidity in the soil by itself....My 2 cents.