Grape wood question

[HewesHort]

i hope im posting this in the right place (if not pls let me know, im new to using forums.)


First let me say, i have built a lot of terrariums but don't have a lot of experience with frogs.

i am building a home for a pacman frog that i will get as soon as i am sure the habitat will thrive. my question is:

i have massive amounts of grape wood (i live in Sonoma County CA, the wine country) the pieces i want to use have some black spots on them that i believe is some sort of mold. i have soaked the wood for the last week, and the water never colored so i assume it is free of tannins. i intend to bake the wood to sanitize it. do I need to be concerned about the black spots after baking? should i use a fungicide, soak again, then bake?

my normal practice when building a terrarium is to spray everything with lime sulfur and rinse thoroughly, but as i intend to have a frog i am wary of using fungicide.

[Chu'Wuti]

i am building a home for a pacman frog that i will get as soon as i am sure the habitat will thrive

First, let me compliment you on your wisdom in preparing your habitat and asking important questions before getting your frog! So much better than getting the animal and then wanting to know why it isn't thriving.

Second, good for you for thinking about the potential effects of the fungicide on the frog. Seems you're already aware that a fungicide could be dangerous for your frog even if you soak the wood afterwards, as some could remain in the wood pores. Good for you for thinking about this! Frogs are very sensitive to changes & chemicals in their environment--they are some of the first to die when pesticides and other poisons are collecting in their environment.

As to the wood: Baking will kill any mold spores; bake it at 200 or 250 deg F for a couple of hours.

More detailed info can be found here: DIY Driftwood - Tetra Community Forum

I especially like the suggestion of using a wire brush to scrub the wood's surface, which will help if the black spots are mold. However, mold spores will go into the wood, not just on the surface.

I would be careful with the salt, too, though if it's safe for the fish it should be safe for the frog. It is less likely to leach out of the wood than a fungicide, too.

[HewesHort]

thank you for your reply, Chu'Wuti!

i will definitely be using a wire brush. i was also wondering about the durability of Grape wood. i have used it for many years with great success, often in very wet tanks (mostly carnivorous plant terrariums). the oldest tank i still have has been growing for about six years, the wood is sitting directly in the substrate and showing no signs of decomposing. below the soil level the wood is soft but definitely not rotting. has anyone else experienced this?

also could the large amounts peat in my carnivore tanks be preventing the wood from rotting?

[harrywitmore]

This is interesting to me. I would not suspect peat would have any affect unless the wood was entirely buried in it. Baking may well kill most all spore but it's very hard to get away from spore since they are most likely a part of every bit of air we breath. So, I would like to know what the source of your wood is.

Originally Posted by HewesHort

thank you for your reply, Chu'Wuti!

i will definitely be using a wire brush. i was also wondering about the durability of Grape wood. i have used it for many years with great success, often in very wet tanks (mostly carnivorous plant terrariums). the oldest tank i still have has been growing for about six years, the wood is sitting directly in the substrate and showing no signs of decomposing. below the soil level the wood is soft but definitely not rotting. has anyone else experienced this?

also could the large amounts peat in my carnivore tanks be preventing the wood from rotting?

[Chu'Wuti]

it's very hard to get away from spore since they are most likely a part of every bit of air we breath

You are absolutely correct, Harry, but baking will at least kill the spores in the wood before he puts it in the vivarium. Then, of course, more spores will go along with it, but the reproduction rate should be considerably diminished.

also could the large amounts peat in my carnivore tanks be preventing the wood from rotting?

Peat could be making enough difference to slow down decomposition even though the wood is not buried completely. Supposedly it produces a very acidic, anaerobic environment that slows the decomposition. However, it may also depend upon the wood type. You might find this article interesting:

SpringerLink - Journal Article

Have fun!

[HewesHort]

Harry, most of the grape wood i use is from old vineyards that have been removed. where i live wineries often will give you a few pieces if you ask,and some will even sell what they tear out. most of the time the larger quantities are already spoken for though. i clean it and leave it outside for a summer or two.

[beckdg]

BLACK MOLD... aspergilis? be very wary of black mold. aspergilis is a very common type of black mold. this stuff can live anywhere. concrete, wood, steel, YOUR LUNGS... it doesn't care. if you kill it, it will come back whenever it stays moist for a short while! it is as deadly dead as it is living. the reason is killing it makes it tend to release into the air... once it hits moisture... just like the good bacteria in a fish tank... it re-establishes itself. white mold is usually harmless and can be baked off effectively... i agree... but i would not invite black mold into my home.

my 2 cents... take it for what it's worth... but it is definitely not half off today!

[HewesHort]

beckdg, i have no idea if it is aspergilis. how would i go about identifying it?

[Chu'Wuti]

There are about 200 species of aspergillus, and the sp. A. niger, which is known as black mold, is the most common. It's probably already in your house. If you've ever had anything mildew, such as wet laundry that you let sit too long, then you have it: black mold appears on the item & stains it permanently. The spores of A. niger are pretty much everywhere. You would have to be able to differentiate it from other aspergillus species microscopically; this takes an expert.

As to the grape wood--if you are getting it at wineries that have healthy grapes, they have a low incidence of black mold, because it ruins the grapes. They may treat with fungicide, though, to get rid of it. You can ask them how they prevent it.

General info:
Aspergillus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Specific info:
Aspergillus niger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Boil the wood & bake it and, IMHO, you should be fine. However, if you don't want to take any chances, you could buy commercially treated wood.

[beckdg]

"More than 60 Aspergillus species are medically relevant pathogens.[2] For humans there is a range of diseases such as infection to the external ear, skin lesions, and ulcers classed as mycetomas."

this is a direct quote from the first link chu posted. i have done some mold remediation and i assure you this is not what i'd worry about. i had a couple customers living out their lives in their 40's-60's who had to live on 1 floor of their house cause they couldn't breathe well enough to make it up the stairs twice in the same day. once it is in your lungs it is like a parasite feeding off the moisture on the lining and the oxygen you breathe.

for something to get that bad... circumstances would have to be met. but they are not as unlikely as we think. and yes there very well could be some in your house right now. the good thing though is they are probably in your shower where they will get sprayed down every day and dry out completely and be less likely to be airborne for long and less likely to be harmful strains. or they will most likely be in your walls... the dark cool dampness is perfect for mold growth, especially if your house is over insulated.

if you want to be sure you can get a mold test kit at home depot or lowes. it will contain a ready made culture and most likely a swab and maybe litmus strips to test ph. ph can help you narrow it down if you know what to look for, but it is NOT A FINAL ANSWER. you will have to send the cultures out to a lab for analysis (i believe this is covered in the cost of most kits). depending on what you have you may have to wait from a few days to max 6 weeks for results.

i used to do this for a living and although i did most of the purchasing i still don't remember the exact cost... i think around $15? don't quote me on that. i also used to get them at a janitorial supply warehouse where you had to own or work for a business related to cleaning, construction, restoration... and such to have an account. if you know someone that fits that requirement and there is a Jon Don (name of the supply place) near you, i'd get them there.

i will say that osha and the epa both have very strict dress codes and quarantine/air scrubbing equipment regulations for remediation of this stuff. i am talking full body teflon and full face (much better than your average particulate) respirators. no part of your body is to be exposed when working with this stuff.

people never took us seriously until we showed up looking like space men with $2'500 vacuums and air cleaners, plastic walls... the list can go on depending where and what kind the mold is. by the time we were done ripping out walls and carpets/tiles on 3 different floors they were usually taking it very seriously. people even tried to sue us till they checked into it and found that we did everything by the book and in their best interest... then usually we'd get thank you cards immediately and six or eight referrals about 2-3 years later. they seem to think the space suit is a ploy to get them off there guard and make it easier to take advantage of them. i assure you it is not. furthermore, i have nothing to gain by scaring the crap out of you and it is not my intention at all. i do think it is too late for that though... sorry.

an awful lot of my customers reported back that respiration issues from young children to "ever since i've lived here... about 20 yrs" cleared up within a few weeks or months after i left.

to be on the safe side... get the test, send it out and add the grapevine when you get your results.

you could use antimicrobials like bleach or microban to kill molds, but not in a viv. aspergilis will most likely bounce back quickly and become resistant (even after applying heat) anyway. for these types of molds a sealant like i.r.q. 6000 or 8000 must be used on surface after removal to prevent exposure to air. (KILLZ WILL NOT WORK!!!)

i was the forman on these jobs and what i am referring to comes from training and experience. white mold i would not stress... black mold is better to check first! it is not really expensive... should be cheaper than a nice piece of mopani. you can also swab any pieces where the mold looks different so you can stock up and have more for later... the lab should know if they are different strains or different points in their life cycle.

i hope this helps... don't stress... i can't help with empty tank syndrome, but you should be fine regardless so long as you know.