epidobates anthonyi

[HurricaneJen]

Hey all! just picked up a couple Epipedobates anthonyi. They're doing well, at least one of them is calling already and both are eating. Just curious if anyone has any natural history on them or knows a bit about their behavior. I've been able to learn about their preference for broad leaves to call from in the top of the vivarium (which my male is already doing), but not a ton about mating behaviors, where in their habitat they're usually found, or anything detailed about behavior and dietary preferences.

They're macking on fruit flies and small crickets like little champs, though. I've been dusting my insects with repashy superpig, although I'm not sure that'll be enough to encourage the true red coloration like the pics of wild ones I've seen (mine are still a deep wine red/brown with green stripes). Anyone been able to raise up bright red frogs? An article i read said that the tadpoles need to be fed a specific diet to get that red coloration for the adults.

Input please!

~jen

[JimO]

I don't have any E. anthonyi, but I know someone who breeds them who goes by gothaicus. I know he is registered on our sister site dartfrogz.com, but not sure if he spends much time here. He might be able to give you some helpful info.

Be careful with the Superpig. Most folks recommend only using it once or twice a month. Repashy's normal supplement with calcium also has red pigment enhancers and will help over time as well. Too much Superpig, I've heard, can cause problems with dart frogs, since I believe it was originally designed for reptiles. You might want to contact Repashy to get a recommended frequency of use.

[HurricaneJen]

Do you know what the reported problems with super pig and amphibians are? one of my coworkers uses it with just about everything she owns, and has several frogs who've been on it for a few months now. Her stuff is in great shape, and she hasn't experienced any loss or issues with the diet.

A friend lent me his big dart frog book and it's got the information on natural habitat I was looking for, but I'll check out that sister forum anyway. Thanks!!

[JimO]

I don't know of any specific problems. I just know that folks who are familiar with the founder of Repashy recommend using it as an occasional supplement to other vitamin and calcium supplements. I believe it has something to do with potential overdoses of Vitamin A if it is used too frequently. But that is about the limit of my knowledge and I don't want to misrepresent the product. I use is a couple of times a month on my Pumilio Cristobals and their color looks great.

Originally Posted by HurricaneJen

Do you know what the reported problems with super pig and amphibians are? one of my coworkers uses it with just about everything she owns, and has several frogs who've been on it for a few months now. Her stuff is in great shape, and she hasn't experienced any loss or issues with the diet.

A friend lent me his big dart frog book and it's got the information on natural habitat I was looking for, but I'll check out that sister forum anyway. Thanks!!

[HurricaneJen]

I checked out the label (and the website, although that wasn't much help) and there's actually no vitamins added to the superpig mix. according to the label, it's not intended to be fed by itself, it's supposed to be mixed with a more complete MRP for geckos or dusted onto insects for insectivores.
Based on the label, the potential issues i can see are mostly the ash content or perhaps issues with the specific carotenoids used.

not trying to be argumentative, just curious. i asked around with some folks who also know Repashy, and I'll pass on what they say. that being said i haven't been putting it on the food constantly for all my animals (and neither has my coworker) - it's just a part of the regular vitamin/calcium dusting regime, which is pretty much what the recommendation is anyway.

thanks for the dialogue!

pics of the p. cristobals?

[beckdg]

beta carotene (which is processed into vitamin a) can be toxic even at levels used in regular vitamin supplements if used too often for herps. search vitamin a toxicity or carotenemia for more information on that.

repashy foods suggests that no more than 6% of the total supplement diet should consist of superpig. as well repashy supplements contain up to 3% by volume already... so with the right supplements you should not need more than another 3% total. cgd for example already contains the aforementioned 3%..

beings superpig consists of only color enhancers i seriously doubt it's necessary for a healthy herp. ingredients consist of Carotenoids, Astaxanthin and xanthophyll which are simply red, orange and yellow color enhancers.

full description:
"The ultimate pigment enhancing blend from the finest, and most concentrated natural sources! If you want to bring out the color in your reptile, amphibian, or fish, give this a try!. Spirulina pacifica algae for full spectrum Beta Carotene (Carotenoids) NatuRose® brand of Haematococcus algae for Red and Orange Pigments (Astaxanthin) Marigold Extract for natural yellow pigmenters (xanthophyll) SuperPig contains equal amounts of these finest pigment enhancing products. No fillers, just a pure blend! "

quoted from: Repashy Ventures - Retail Store - Superfoods :: Products :: Supplements :: Pigment Supplements :: SuperPig

betta carotene is a vitamin (or is at least processed into one once ingested)... vitamin a... so it is a vitamin mix... but one that if overused can cause toxicity. hence the term "most concentrated".

i, personally would be using rep-cal herptivite once in a while and rep-cal calcium pretty often (maybe every other feed)... maybe adding superpig once monthly... or mixing it with my herptivite at 3% by weight. should be more than enough to bring out any color without risking toxicity.

[HurricaneJen]

Ahh, that makes sense regarding vitamin A. But from what I can find researching how beta carotene is used, it's stored in the liver and other fat storing organs as beta carotene and not made into vitamin A. Those studies are based on rats and mammals though; do you know any studies done on reptiles?
http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/25/5/827.full
(that's one of the studies I read - turns out the stuff is carcinogenic in high enough doses, but not necessarily due to vitamin A toxicity)
When I tried searching beta carotene toxicity / vitamin A toxicity, I got lots of results for mammal or human issues, not so much reptile wise. Any links you've found? One page made the statement that while it's not proven, it's thought the body only makes as much vitamin A as it needs out of beta carotene, and the only major beta carotene overdose side effects seem to be diarrhea.
Beta-Carotene
(the site making that statement)

That being said, none of the adverse side effects are really things I want to inflict on my frogs or other animals, but I'm only using the superpig as an addition to my usual supplementing regime.
According to the label, the superpig blend is 4% of the gecko MRP and 8% of the insect gutload. Where did you find the recommendation to include the superpig as only 6% of the diet? I couldn't find anything on Repashy's site about it, although I found it hard to navigate - could be I just missed it!

[beckdg]

allen is a member on some gecko forums. you can ask on some of them and there's a good chance he'll answer himself eventually or someone might quote one of his old answers.

unfortunately his site does not offer a whole lot of insight.

i think it might have been melissa kaplan where i first started getting information on vitamin a toxicity and it's relatives but there is information out there if you're willing to look for it. unfortunately in the herp world information isn't spread everywhere to find it at the click of a google.

yes, i do realize that most scientific information related will not be on the species you're keeping. that's one unfortunate thing we have to put up with since to have every answer, every question has to be tested and re-tested on every species. fortunately there are folks that do understand and have had experiences we can learn from. in relation to humans and rats i can say i've seen a lot more than just diarrhea reported just from MERCK (a major drug company based here in the states).

we have discussed it on this site in the past. a couple members you might have good luck searching with are kyryah and froggsong.

other places you could get good supplement/nutrition info are dendroboard, gecko forums, bearded dragon forums and chameleon forums. maybe from some turtle enthusiasts also.

i suggest you ask around in as many of those places as you can to get a better idea/broader scope in relation to nutrition, how things work and the requirements. seems you're looking for a more in-depth answer than you can get typically from just one source.

[HurricaneJen]

I'll check around on there, a couple of folks I know enjoy the rhacodactylus immensely and may know more about the repashy diets. I'll look around and pass on what I find.

You're right, a more thorough answer at least regarding absorption of beta carotene is going to be hard to find. I think I will likely be better off checking into more studies for that though; I find forums tend to side track in a way that scientific studies aren't allowed to.

Which brings me back to my original question - anyone know any ways of encouraging the anthonyi to gain more red coloration? I've done more research on them since originally getting them and it looks like the variety I've got is just naturally that wine red color and green.

Speaking of interesting studies - I borrowed "Poison Frogs" by Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel, and Schmidt to refresh my memory on husbandry and found this interesting bit about the toxins of E. Anthonyi (which up until recently were classified as tricolor)

"This frog (as E. tricolor) attracted international attention when it was discovered to contain an alkaloid that was later named epibatidine. The history of the discovery of this substance goes back to 1977 when two American scientists collected this species in Ecuador and detected an alkaloid fraction with an opiate-like action in its skin. This had one of the scientists return to Ecuador in the following year to collect more specimens. He returned with some 750 of them from which about 60 mg of alkaloids could be extracted. This amount then yielded about 750 (ug) of the sought after alkaloid fraction. However, it then took until the late 1980s for analysis equipment and methods to become advanced and refined enough to map the chemical structure of the substance; in fact it was not before 1992 that this process was eventually completed. Epidbatidine turned out to have an extreme pain-killing action, and is today produced synthetically. Owing to its toxicity it was never used as medication, but rather in neuronal cell research. Meanwhile the molecule has been modified artificially to that it is less toxic than the original epibatidine, but still remains many times more effective than morphine. Its great advantage over morphine is that the substance, called ABT-594, is apparently not addictive. This caused a global stir, but also led to political arguments. If the US based pharmaceutical company Abbot decides to introduce the painkiller to the market within the next years, its market potential is estimated to be in the region of $40 billion. This is a volume that Ecuador, understandably, wants to be a part of. After all, it is argued, it is a genetic resource of that country, protected by convention on biodiversity and the UN resolution 391 of 1996. Observers reckon that chances are slim for Ecuador to be sharing the spoils for this reason, though, because of the US not having ratified the convention on biodiversity. Even the argument that the 750 frogs collected in 1977 were exported from Ecuador illegally is of judicial concern because the ministry that was entrusted with affairs of this nature at the time today has no relevant records anymore."

Interesting stuff!

Thanks again
~jen