American Green Tree Frogs...not eating?

[cf.zrw.08]

Hello Everyone,

Let me preface this by saying that I've never kept amphibians of any kind before. I've had success with fish, birds, and snakes, but I've never attempted frogs before.

Last Tuesday, I recieved two juvenile (I suppose...they're probably about an inch long) American Green Tree Frogs from some classmates of mine. They had been doing a research project on them, and after the experimentation phase was done, they could either sell them to pet shops, give them away, or "dispose of them humanely".

No one wanted to see them "disposed of", so they offered them up to us, their classmates, for free. After some debate, I got my parents to let me adopt a couple, and I began the research. I thought I had everything planned out. A 10 gal tank with driftwood (frozen and soaked in bleach and scrubbed clean...also dechlorinated, of course, after bleaching) and a variety of plants, including philodendrons, peace plants, and bamboo, with regular mistings. I'd feed them feeder crickets, initially purchased from my local pet store, then bred at my home in another spare 10 gallon tank. The substrate is potting soil, let me know if this is unacceptable for use with the frogs.

Well, first off, regular mistings didn't keep the humidity up. It regularly dipped to below 40%, reaching 55% or so only for about an hour, right after misting. This may be part of the problem, but I have at least a temporary fix: I've slipped some saran warp between the tank and the wire screen (poking airholes for breathability, of course) and in the hour or so since ive done that, the humidity has doubled, from about 30% to around 60%. Let me know if this is a bad idea.

As I've said, I've been feeding them feeder crickets, gut loaded with TREX brand cricket food, and dusted with a calcium supplement. I've never seen the frogs eat, but I suppose since they're nocturnal, that's natural. I've put two crickets in the tank each day, theoretically one for each frog. The crickets dissapeared, so I assumed they were being eaten. However, the other morning when I was misting the tank, I found two dead crickets, neither of which appeared to have been even munched on. This got me a little bit apprehensive, but not particularly worried. I figured they may have not been particularly hungry.

The larger of the 2 frogs looks emaciated; that is, when he's not curled up on a leaf, and when i can actually see his stomach/chest. Of course, I don't know exactly what a starving frog looks like, but in my opinion, he looks rather skinny. He is also a dark, mottled brown color, which i've heard is a sign of stress. The other from doesn't seem as skinny, and is a limey/leafy green color.

I have since read that the frogs might not eat food that will not easily fit inside their mouth; the crickets are probably about half an inch long, on average, which is close to being as big as the frogs' heads. Is this too big of a cricket for such a small frog?

Also, I have considered the fact that they may not have yet settled into their new habitat. However, it has been nearly a week, and I would have though they would be acclimated by now, and certainly would have started eating. After all, they weren't just shipped across the country; my classmates had them in their own enclosures for a couple of months, from my understanding. And a half hour car ride to and from school shouldn't be such an insurmoutable obstacle as to keep them from eating for a week.

So, in conclusion, what is keeping them from eating? Or are they eating, and just not gaining weight? Is the low humidity affecting them? Are the crickets too big? Is it something else that I've completely failed to mention? When I can, I'll post a picture of the 'skinny' frog, so you'll be able to judge for yourself if I'm just being paranoid. Thanks, in advance, for your help in this matter.

Sincerely,
Richard Skipwith

[Rainfrog]

Keep in mind I am not an expert, but I do know some things.

I suspect the bleached wood may be a problem. Frogs breathe through there skin and are one of the most suceptible species on the planet when it come to enviro toxicity. The wood could have easily soaked bleach deep inside its fibers. This could have left toxins in the wood even after atempts to dechloronate. Once the humidity went up and air flow decreased (the celephane works both ways keeps in water but prevents air flow I would only cover maybe 70%) the increased humidity could theoreticaly bring toxins left in the wood back to the surface and poison the frogs. (Again I am not an expert and am guesing on this)

What is the temp?

Have you thought of creating a drainage layer out of gravel under the substrait to hold water? this could help with humidity.

I would sugest smaller crickets and sugest feeding several for each frog and removing uneaten portions the next day to ensure the faster frogg isnt getting all the food

[cf.zrw.08]

Black Rain Frogger,

Thanks for the input. I was initially wary of using bleached wood, especially in a frog tank, seeing as how they breathe through their skin, but the pet shop owner assured me that using a dechlorinator would remove all traces of bleach. Nevertheless, I will remove the wood, just to be on the safe side.

The tank is unheated, but stays around 72-77 degrees. Yes, i put a layer of gravel underneath the soil for drainage. I will be sure to get smaller crickets, and I will report back on their progress. Thanks for your help.

[Pavel]

Not sure how well it would work but you might also try suspending some long-fibered sphagnum moss in the tank [afix it to a branch, etc]. Mist the moss thoroughly ... it will hold water for a while and could provide the frogs with a moister place to roost.

Btw, you aren't using tap water are you? [Didn't remember if you had covered that in your post.] The aforementioned sensitivity to chemicals, also applies to the 'stuff' added to city water. Distilled or rain water would be best to use.

If the soil has the little white chunks of perlite or styrofoam, the it should not be used as it might accidentally get ingested by the frogs.

Hopefully Tindomul will report in. Otherwise you could try pm'ing him.

[cf.zrw.08]

Bad news, guys.

The 'skinny' frog was found dead in my tank. The potting soil did contain perlite, so I'd reckon that's what did him in. The other frog is out of the tank in one of those litttle plastic Critter Keeper boxes until I can get some special, nontoxic, amphibian bedding. I've heard you can use pine/cypress bark. Does anyone have any suggestions as to a good, reliable, safe substrate? I washed the soil off of the remaining frog,and helooks okay. I'll be going into town ASAP to get some smaller crickets. Hopefully, the combination of things Ive done ought to keep this one alive. Thanks for the advice once again. Just sorry it was too late to save the poor guy.

[Tindomul1of9]

Sorry to hear of your loss. I hate it when that happens. What size crickets were you feeding them? You should be able to observe them eat. Once a cricket comes into view the frog should show immediate interest. If not, either its still asleep, or its sick. Use small sized crickets, about 1/4 of an inch for the first few feedings. Later on, if you think they can take larger crickets, you can try.
The greenies need humidity around 60-80% and I have heard they can take less.
Temps are the same.
Perlite would kill the frog slowly through impaction of the digestive system. Well to be honest, Im not sure if a week is long enough. When you open the tank, can you or anyone else in your family able to smell bleach? If its leaching I would assume that it would be detectable. Or if you touch the wood, does it feel soapy?
Some petstores sell potting soil for terrariums. You can also try some stuff called bed a beast, or even dried moss, or sphagnum moss. You can also try, if you have access to a tree that has not been sprayed with pesticides, some leaf litter. This helps increase the general humidity in a tank. Go for Oak leaves or Magnolia leaves.
Again, sorry for the loss.

[cf.zrw.08]

No, the wood doesn't feel soapy, nor does it have any bleachy-odor. No odor at all, really. The crickets are probably around a half inch long, on average. Judging from your advice, I'd say that's too big. So I'll be getting some tiny crickets for them; is there any other kind of insect or anything that they like to eat? I know reptiles will occasionally stop eating if they don't get variety. Guess I probably should have done more research before jumping in headfirst. I just got the basics and ran with it. Probably not a good idea. But, at any rate, it's good to know that there are sites such as this to help people with their pets. I always love going on petfish.net when I need help with my fish, or if I have some spare time and some good advice I can offer. I'll get the tank set up with safe substrate and start feeding smaller crickets, and I'll keep you informed, to let you know how the little guy comes along. And once again, thanks for the advice.

[Landon]

tindo has some sound advice in there and it sounds like you are on your way to getting this corrected for the remaining frog.

the only tihng i can add on impaction is check for feces of the second frog. while you have it in the critter keeper it should be easy to find any droppings. this is a sure way to know if the frog is eating and passing its food i would also think that impaction alone would take more than a week to harm a healthy greenie, but it could add a great deal of stress to an allready stressed frog. the opening of the lid and another transfer may keep the next one from eating in front of you, but once comfortable you should regularly witness him/her eating.

as far as food size, check out this pic, and note the relationship size of crickets. mos tree frogs can handle pretty big prey items compared to some other similar sized animals. you canalso see here a healthy body size of a similar tree frog.




any potting mix should be fine to use as substrate, but make sure it is free of any pesticides, or fertilizers. perilite and vermaculate should be avoided for the impaction issue. just make sure whatever you use dont let it remain wet and soggy.

humidity will be much easier to keep up with part of the screen covered. depending on ambient humidity, you may need t ocover a good bit of the lid to get correct humidity. id shoot for 70%, and once you get that stable with the saran wrap, you can get a piece of acrylic or glass to put in its place (and cover the same amount of screen) as a more permenant fix.

good luck and happy frogging!

[cf.zrw.08]

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, but I've had a lot of schoolwork and other stuff going on lately. The frog is back in the 10gal, with compressed coconut fiber substrate. I got a piece of grapevine from the lps to replace the driftwood, and some artificial plants to go along with the real ones already situated in the tank. I also got small crickets, and the frog has been eating and defecating normally, so it seems that all is well. Thanks once again for the advice, you may have saved my frog. :-D

[twodogs]

HI
Im reasonably new to this frog setup, but ive been told that Potting mix has faeces/poo in it which may be harmfull to frogs over a period of time.
Dont know if this is correct, but i chose peat moss instead.
With the wood if you found a new piece and cooked in an oven at a temp of 280 celsius
(sorry dont know farrenhieght) it should kill off any nasties and leave it perfectly clean. You should also make sure that all the Tanon has been removed from the wood...