potted plants?

[chibisan]

I work at an aquarium and we will soon be incorporating some poison dart frogs and red eye tree frogs. And I'm in charge of taking care of them etc.

So I have some quick questions...

What would be the advantages/disadvantages of using potted plants? Would it be just as easy to directly plant the plants in the substrate?

And also, if I were to want to put some plants in the background, would the easiest way to do that be to find some small pots and incorporate them in the foam background? Or is there another way to do it? I was reading about air plants but it seems as though they don't do well in humid environments that dart frogs need? So would somehow incorporating potted plants work? Or would that just look dumb? If so, would it just be best to plant some ivy type plants?

And I'm also wondering if a small pond area is necessary or would just a shallow dish that can easily be changed work okay for the water? Sorry if this isn't a building question, but I need to know if I have to worry about making a pond area. Since it will only house poison dart frogs in one tank and red eye tree frogs in another.

Thanks for your help! I've never done something like this but am looking forward to the adventure! Hopefully it turns out okay! lol

[Green Ghost]

I guess everyone has thier own taste and opinion but I would go with what the frogs would encounter (or as close to it as possible) in the wild.

Usually what limits people in building or setting up a vivarium is thier budget. If the aquarium is springing for the everything that will go into the viv, then why not go totally natural and put the plants directly into the soil.

If this is a temporary setup and you want to recycle the plants to another viv later then maybe potted the plants might be easier for you. IMHO, planting the plants directly into the substrate looks 100 times better than having pots sticking out.

You're right about the air ferns in the humid temps. They won't last long. It's too bad because they look really good.

Incorporating small pots into the foam background is what is usually done (for the background covering the sides of the viv) for most viv's.

If you put a dish (for the water) it'll look easier, but it will actually be harder to maintain. The smaller the amount of water, the faster is will foul. If you work at the aquarium you must already know about water quality. You'll be in the tank frequently to change the water and possibly disturb / stress the frogs. Why not go for a setup that will be a little more complicated to set up but once it is, it's almost maintenance free or very close to it? I'd suggest having a sump lower than the vivs that the water area in the viv empties into via a riser tube. You could then pump the water back up into the tank. The typical setup is to have the water spilling down a waterfall leading into the water area.

You can control the temperature of the water from the sump, filter much more efficiently from there, make water changes from there too, and the sump could supply both tanks. Also lets you have a practical place to test the water to make sure it's clean. Fouled water will harm your frogs. Best of all, you won't have to be in the tank to do any maintenance. Your sump can also be your reservoir for your misting system.

This type of setup also lets you make sure the tank never gets too full of water if you have a misting system and lets you drain the viv completely if you need to.

[chibisan]

Thanks for such a great reply
I had posted a reply but have new info so I'm just going to edit my original post...

We plan on using a misting system. And I guess we are going to get an acrylic tank made. The viewing window will be 36" high by 24" wide. And since we want both poison dart frogs and redeye tree frogs, they thought of just dividing the acrylic tank in two with an acrylic divider. So would 36" hx 12"w be big enough for these guys? I'm not sure how deep it'll be, that is probably up to suggestions. I suppose if necessary, the tank could be a tad bit wider than the viewing window, but not by much. And at these dimensions, what would be an adequate # of frogs per side? Also, would it be okay to have some ventilation holes drilled into the acrylic divider or would it be best to leave them fully partitioned off from one another?

I believe we would do doors that open at the back of the tank to which I could apply the foam backing etc. And the doors wouldn't have to go to the bottom of the tank to allow for a false bottom.

Okay, and then for the water question. Since these tanks won't be very wide (only about 12" each) would a waterfall still be necessary? Or how should I do it? Should the tank just have a false bottom (either in eggcrate or acrylic with holes drilled) to drain water and not use a water feauture? Just have like a small corner of each have water sitting in a gravel pit with water from the false bottom (if that makes sense). But then would that water need to be drained? Or could it just be drained weekly for water changes through a hole in the bottom of the tank?

Hopefully these aren't dumb questions and they make sense.

[Green Ghost]

Did you see this? -> https://www.vivariumforum.com/?q=Dart...struction-Log&

He built these tanks out of acrylic too. Might give you some ideas.

You seem to be asking about minimum requirements. As far as minimums go I guess RETFs could survive a couple of weeks in (at very least) a shoe box with holes poked out in the top for air and a water dish.

It's really up to you since you work at the aquarium and you're in charge of the project. I would go for as much space as I could get for the vivs. I have 2 RETFs in a super planted tank that's 36x18x12. What makes frogs happy is a lot of live plants. Whatever you decide on - in terms of false bottoms/drainage system - I think you'd want to create an environment that lend itself to being an actual eco system and as self sustaining as possible. Pretty much along the lines of a typical heavily planted aquarium.

I've done exactly that with my setups because it's better for me and the animals also. RETFs sleeping on the glass sides of a tank are probably not as happy as the ones sleeping on the undersides of broad leaved plants, because in nature there isn't any glass sides

Personally I would suggest reading up on RETF caresheets before planning the viv. RETF sleep during the day and don't like light at all. I'd say they're pretty much invisible and unresponsive during the daytime. At night when they are hunting crickets they rarely ever go to the substrate level in the viv. They're always on leaves or on branches in the middle or top sections of the vivarium.

Just out of curiosity, will they be on display during the day?

[chibisan]

See, the thing is, is that we are some what limited for space for these guys. We are expanding our Amazon exhibit and so were going to include some frogs. So the tank will be built into a wall. And seeing as we are not a zoo, the frogs really aren't meant as the show case of the exhibit, the 22ft long tank for fish is. But since I'm in charge of the frogs, I want to get what's best for them and make them thrive.

So yes, the frogs would be on exhibit during the day time. Would there be a better frog than RETFs for the other half of the tank? I mean I guess if it isn't suitable to have another type of frog on the other side, we wouldn't have to do it, I just know my boss was interested in more than just poison dart frogs. But it would need to be something from the Amazon type area.

Thanks for the link, I will read up on it. I've been trying to search multiple websites/forums for info it's just so time consuming that I figured I might as well ask questions as well

[Green Ghost]

Thanks for the info, ... it explains a lot. I think it's really fantastic that you're in charge of a project like that, by the way. I'm an IT guy and I manage networks during the daytime so I'm in a completely different field. I always wanted to be involved in something like that, though.

I was asking if they would be on exhibit during the day precisely because I wasn't sure if you were aware that they sleep during the day, I guess you saw where I was going with that. Most amphibians can't see red light so there may have been a way to reverse thier day to night and exhibit them in a dark room with red light on the viv. That way they could be fooled into thinking it was night when it's actually daytime, and have them viewed as active. Actually many species of tree frogs are nocturnal. But if your space is limited, having an extra darkened area just to be able to see the frogs may not be practical.

Can I make a suggestion? There's so much information and so many different species of frogs (and thier proper husbandry)/ so much information on building vivs / so much information on lighting and filtration / so much information on plants (which thier importance shouldn't be underestimated in vivs).... Why don't you hire someone who already knows all of this already as a consultant to help you with this project? - As opposed to trying to research everything at the 11th hour - Especially if this is going to be a permanent exhibit. I'll tell you, there's some extremebly knowledgeable people on this forum (and others) that could make your project quite a success and make you look good in your boss's eyes.

I'm typing here and I'm thinking these posts of mine are already too long and I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface of the information that I'd want to tell you about because I know it's essential in a project like this....

[chibisan]

I suppose that would be ideal, but we are a really small aquarium wayyy up in Duluth MN and so really our funding is limited, this Amazon exhibit almost didn't happen because of lack of funding. So we're trying to do most of it in-house.
I've been reading up on vivariums for well over a month now, but it's so hard with so much info!
So I know it would be ideal to get someone who knew what they were doing to do it, but I can't see that happening. Hopefully that doesn't make us sound too discredible...

So I'm just trying to do my best to get these guys a nice home since they'll be living in it for quite some time.

If anyone can make any suggestions on frogs that would work well also, I will research on those. I just felt limited since they have to be from the Amazon area.

And sorry if all these questions have been asked a hundred times or something

[Green Ghost]

Originally Posted by chibisan

And sorry if all these questions have been asked a hundred times or something

No No, don't worry about that, it's all good. I'm sure someone else from the board will also chime in here with info for you...

I guess the best way to tackle the problem is to go ahead and make up a viv and see how it turns out. Then you'll see what kind of problems you encounter and solve them on the fly.

[AJS822]

I was a herpetology intern in the rainforest exhibit at the national aquarium in Baltimore this past summer. I may be able to help you out here, as I spent a good deal of time maintaining the dart frog exhibits as well as with their extremely packed breeding room in the back of it. What species of dart frog were you going to display? As far as other frogs go, we also had the panamanian golden frogs in one of the tanks which are endangered. In the d. tinctorius exhibit, we actually kept 3 amazon milk frogs in the tank with 7 tincs. They are pretty interesting. I understand the appeal of having red eye tree frogs as they are what everyone thinks of when you mention rainforest frogs, but dart frogs are diurnal and red eyes are nocturnal so that may be very difficult to keep them in the manner you are describing. If you like, I can give you information on how the tanks are set up and if I can get pictures to load, post photos from the actual exhibit. I will check back on here later. Let me know if you have any questions

[chibisan]

thanks guys

I had thought of Amazon Milk frogs, but was having a hard time finding them. I had emailed some amphibian/reptile supply sites online and no one had any at the time. So if anyone knows where I can contact about those, I'd appreciate it. I know the Shedd Aquarium has some in their Amazon exhibit. But I doubt that they're breeding them. We're getting some of our fish from them which is why I do know that some aquariums/zoos share animals.

And sure, if it's not a problem I would love to see pictures! The more info I have the better.

As for species of frogs that's also open. I've just been doing research, but my boss said if possible, she would like some of the D.azureus, but from what I read they can really only live in pairs. So really anything that can live with them would be good also. Other than the azureus I've looked into auratus but have read that they tend to be shy. So then I've also looked into D. leucomelas. So by all means let me know what would work and what wouldn't. I don't want anyone getting territorial and making life hard. Also, are they like fish, where if you have so many that live on the bottom, that's pretty much the limit? From one site I was reading, it looks like most of these frogs are terrestrial. Will they go up on vines or bamboo stalks if they're put in? If not, are there any available species that will make use of the vertical space?

I kind of have an idea as to how the tank will be set up, lets just hope it works and my work doesn't go for nothing! lol I'm thinking of having it set up with a false floor so that if I wanted to in the future put in a water feature I could, it would just need to be plumbed in or something. Well, either way I'll use a false floor to prevent water from gathering in the bottom since that really seems like a good way to go and since this is a permanent exhibit, it'd just be easy to do it that way first off I would think.

Okay, then one more question do most people mix up their own substrate? I've seen the various recipes for different soils etc, or would it be just as easy to buy one ready made? Like there is one on vivariumconcepts.com that is a blend they made.