Is there such a thing as too big?

[MarlboroMan]

I've been lurking here for quite a while trying to get ideas for a vivarium. My wife and I saw a few displays at the Daytona show and she was hooked (of course I always have to do the work when she gets hooked).

After reading up on everything from false floors to waterfall construction to the wonders of Great Stuff, and prior experience building acrylic enclosures, I think I'm ready to start my PDF vivarium. I figure a couple of months worth of weekends for construction and planting and a couple of months of growing time and I'll be ready to add some animals.

However, with most projects a man wants to do, I want to go big. I have an alcove in my dining room that would fit a 3'H x 6'W x 2.5'D enclosure with a 3' tall stand and 6" hood (to hide lighting and misting system). According to the calculator on GARF.org, this would equate to approx. 336 gallons of volume. Using the pics from the Blackjungle.com gallery as the inspiration, I've got the basic design sketched out. The only thing that I keep thinking about heating.

I know that the occupants ultimately drive heating and humidity requirements. After reading last month's Reptiles Mag article on a reader's viv, I've decided that I'd like to houses PDFs and possibly pygmy chameleons if I can get the temp gradiants correct.

Is it possible to properly heat an enclosure this large? Any thoughts on the best way to go about doing so?

[02gixxer]

That Is Very Large And Would Be Difficult To Get Them Food Most Of Us Are Keeping Them In 10-60 Gallon Tanks Depending On How Many Frogs Im Not Sayn Dont Do It But At The Same Time I Am If They Will Be Your Very First Pdfs Start Small Get The Hang Of There Care Before Going That Large They Will Be The Ones Who Suffer Ie Hard To Find There Food

As Far As Heating Not Many Of Us Heat Our Tanks At All They Need To Be Kept Under 80f With Is Hard Enough To Keep Under Much Less Heat To That Temp I Rec As Will Most Prob Get A 10 Gallon Tank Do Your Home Work Start Culturing Flys Before U Get Your Frogs To Learn The Ins And Outs And Do Like 2 Maybe 3 AND DO NOT KEEP "pygmy chameleons" WITH FROGS!

[MarlboroMan]

Has anyone had success with a multi-species vivariums? I've read a few articles about folks who have multiple lizards (day geckos and bearded pygmy chameleons), frogs (PDFs and reed frogs) and even rough green snakes all in the same vivarium. The most recent is the Living Vivarium article in the Sept 07 Reptiles Magazine. Has anyone read this? I'd like to hear another point of view on this. The article made it seem perfectly fine.

As long as the temp and humidity requirements all match up and they're not on different level of the food chain, would this work? With the space that I'll have I'd like to give it a shot, but not at the expense of the animals.

I guess more one thing to mention is that I would not be putting all of the animals in at once. I understand the need to get adapted to new environments and would work them all in slowly to reduce stress as much as possible.

[Rainfrog]

I have been saying it a lot lately but I believe interspecies Vivaria should be left to only the most experienced keepers. it is a difficult thing accurately reproducing an animals natural habitat. Most of the time we only come close, creating habitats that are livable but not exactly ideal. Animals in captivity experience more stress or at least different kinds of stress than their wild counterparts and don't usually do well in a multi species environment. most animals kept like this would never or rarely see the other species in the wild. PDFs can de delicate, and Chams are from what I have read ore one of the most difficult herps to keep well. I am an experienced snake keeper and I have found Rough Green Snakes delicate even under the best conditions. I agree with 02gixxer on this one.

[MarlboroMan]

Rainfrog-

Thanks for the reply. Your post definitely makes sense. Maybe I'll just stick to Green Tree Pythons and give one of my big 'kids' a dream home instead.

Thanks,
Jon

[MarlboroMan]

One quick open question to all memebers:

The feedback about having a multi-species viv makes perfect sense, as does the enclosure size possibly having a negative impact on feeding PDFs. With that in mind, what kind of inhabitants (and how many) would you put in an viv of this size (3'H x 6'W x 2.5'D)?

I told the "better half" about the responses that have been posted and the idea of putting one of my GTPs in there instead. While she didn't have a problem with it, she thought it might make some house guests uncomfortable. Some folks just don't dig snakes. She thought that something less "threatening" would be more appropriate.

Some background on the setup: The plan is to have multiple water features, a large amount of plantings and an automated misting system so humidity control should not be an issue. Heating and basking areas would be added depending on the animals requirements. I also plan to let the system cycle for a couple of months before adding any animals.

Thank you in advance for any input!

[Rainfrog]

With that size you have a lot you can choose from. you could go with some Giant Day Geckos, A small colony with a male and a few females (I dont know colony size or space requirements for this species) You could go with a pair of Chinese Water Dragons. you could do Red Eye Tree Frogs, A good sized Group of Vietnamese Mossy Frogs. That is realy only the tip of the berg. I dont know a lot about them but sailfin lizards might be a possability.

[icytea_thunder]

www.poison-frogs.com, a 2002 website dedicated to rainforest vivaria for dart poison frogs, together with lots of pictures, films and more. How to create the right conditions,like temperature, humidity, ventilation, light and design

Heres a guy who did a similar thing. I didn't do too much research into it but gives a good desciption of what he did and such...maybe use this as a starter if you decided to start the construction. I agree with rainfrog that you should prolly get a handle on PDFs...maybe build a viv or two in cheap 10 gal tanks to get the hang of construction (what you like dont like etc.) and give the frogs a try before you do such a big undertaking....just trying to help save you from a lot of pain if things don't work out. BTW sounds like an awsome idea.