The "true Cuban" Anolis sagrei?

gasteriaphile · #1 (**permalink**) 06-03-2009, 08:58 PM

Hi all. I am particularly seeking contact with Florida members of the forum (or any herpers in Florida that members might know?).

Here's my question. It seems to me that there is no longer any Brown Anoles in Florida like the ones that were there when I was a kid some 50 years ago. Back then when one ordered an Anolis sagrei one got a sagrei like the ones in my photo (see below) - I call this form the "true Cuban" form. Nowadays, though, what one seems to get is something very different (see second photo).

It seems to me that in the intervening years the Bahama race of sagrei has pretty much swamped the gene pool of sagreis in south Florida to the point where one can no longer get what I call the "true Cuban form". Is this pretty much what you all see also? Or are there some of these "true Cuban forms" still in Florida, such that, if one ordered say, 100 Brown Anoles, there is the likelihood that at least some would be the "true Cuban"?

The "true Cuban" is not only marked differently, but it was larger and the males had some definite nucal crests.

Thanks in advance for your input and the benefit of your experiences. I particularly hope to get replies from those of you who live in south Florida or have visited there and done some exploring to see all the different forms.

Breck

RecycledAgain · #2 (**permalink**) 06-03-2009, 10:19 PM

Feel free to ask away, I live in central Florida between Daytona and Orlando.
As I started to read your post I immediately assumed you were asking about the green anole decline. I reread the post and found my self recognizing the difference in the brown Anoles you are asking about.

I see the females about frequently,( the white diamond shapes on the back) the males I never really payed attention to the differences. I will be happy to look about tomorrow and check now that I know what I am looking for.

Dan

RecycledAgain · #3 (**permalink**) 06-03-2009, 10:23 PM

[Snip] "The "true Cuban" is not only marked differently, but it was larger and the males had some definite nucal crests."

What are nucal crests?

Dan

Chu'Wuti · #4 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 04:11 PM

Breck, this is a very interesting question--wish I knew something about it! Unfortunately, I don't even live in Florida, so I'm not much help.

However, your local herpetological society might be more able to help you with your question. In south Florida, the following claims to be the oldest south FL society, but it may not be very close to you:

Sawgrass Herpetological Society, Broward County Florida's Oldest Reptile Club

By googling "Florida herpetological society," I got a lot of links to herp societies in your state. As I don't know your precise location, it will be better for you to repeat my search and select the one closest to you. Then you can contact them and ask about the change you've observed.

Dan, your quote may be referring to the "nuchal" crest, which are the spike-like projections running down some lizards' spines from the base of the head to the tip of the tail. The following terminology list might be helpful:

Lizard Terminology

Have fun, gentlemen!

RecycledAgain · #5 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 06:08 PM

I appreciate that Chu, I looked it up today.

I also went anole hunting today at work.
(My manager pulled me aside this morning an informed me that the employees thought I went crazy...)
I keep two large brown anole males for pictures. The Bahamian anoles are a bit more of a challenge, but we definatly have them.

Dan

Chu'Wuti · #6 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 06:24 PM

Great, Dan! I'm looking forward to the pics!

RecycledAgain · #7 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 06:58 PM

These are the biggest brown Anoles I could catch. The Bahamians may have to be taken with a camera ,, they are a bit more skittish. We shall see,,,

Dan

darc · #8 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 11:49 PM

Cool collaboration guys... I'm up in Arkansas and I think we only have green anoles (at least, I've never seen one that looks like the brown anole pics you posted). We mostly just have eastern fence lizards, green anoles, and a few different types of skinks.
-darc

Chu'Wuti · #9 (**permalink**) 06-07-2009, 04:19 AM

I used to live in south Texas, and I only ever saw the green ones there, too. How big do those browns and the Bahamians get?

gasteriaphile · #10 (**permalink**) 06-08-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

I used to live in south Texas, and I only ever saw the green ones there, too. How big do those browns and the Bahamians get?

First of all, there are not "those browns" and "the Bahamians". Both common names apply to the same species, Anolis sagrei. This species appears to vary somewhat in size because of the introduction of the Bahama genes. The old "true Cuban form" males could get pretty goodly sized, say just a bit shorter than your typical Green Anole (i.e. Anolis carolinensis at 7"-9" long). But they are stockier. These "new", "mongrel" sagreis with the (presumably) Bahamanian genes, are a bit smaller than the old ones were, maybe only 5"-6" incl. tail.