Self Sustaining System

[edward]

Hi everyone.

I am interested in experimenting with the intention of creating a self sustaining paludarium.

I have studied the construction process and am confident that I can handle the construction of the palu.

I would like this to be able to work in a 50 gallon or smaller glass tank.

A small amount of maintenance from me would be, in my opinion, still be acceptable for the experiment to be considered a success. For the most part, I would just want it to exist on its own.

Ideally, the palu would contain plants and animals that reproduce at a rate that is such that the next species up the food chain can survive off of them. That being said, here are my initial thoughts.

Some species of insect would need to be present in the palu. Perhaps something along the lines of a fruitfly. Low maintenance and reproduce quickly. These would be preyed upon by some fish. I was thinking about trying guppies. I have raised guppies in the past and they are very low maintenance. Depending on the tank setup, they can "self-regulate" their own population or it can grow fairly quickly. The guppies would provide food for some sort of predator, perhaps a turtle or tarantula (I think some species eat fish??). I would also like to consider having some sort of land creatures in the palu as well. Maybe some frogs/toads or geckos. These could provide food for another predator (tarantula?).

I have not been able to think up some creature that would be able to control plant growth.


I know that the limiting factor in this experiment will be figuring out how to balance everything.

Im hoping that some people here that have more experience with these types of plants and animals can offer me some advice on my project.

Id like to get a more carefully developed plan together before I attempt this and Im hoping the people on this forum can help me get to the point of actually attempting it.

**Also, my apologies for the poor structure of this thread.

[Epiphile]

Well, this is certainly a good place to start- welcome.

You've got a big project on your hands- a system with that many players will be a real challenge.

[Tom Highum]

No offense but I don't think this will work to many options for problems. If one stage fails all else does. You might be able to do something on a much smaller scale.

[beckdg]

i think tom is offering good insight although i'm sure there's a possibility that you could get at least close to the results you're looking for. i am quite confident that you'll have to have a tremendous amount of patience and be fine with repetative failures to accomplish your end product.

spiders throw a huge amount of slings. even considering them you'd probably need a viv measured by fractions of an acre instead of inches imo. with them involved in the food chain i'd think your project just went from measuring price by dollars/thousands straight to millions. not necessarily just for the spiders but for accomodations and stocking. feeding hundreds to thousands of slings (the natural way) is going to add up to tons of complications if you want the feeder species to survive.

regardless what the bottom line is i think the best place to start would be to choose a local and work specifically with that.

good luck... you'll need it!

[MtuPup]

I just have this image of a match from bloodsport, or a cage match at the Thunder dome....

I think the biggest hurdle you might encounter is finding the "balance" where as one link in the food chain does not over populate and consume the bio-system.

But I'm really curious myself as to the mechanics of making this kind of system, so i can't be wholeheartedly wish you all the best.

[edward]

I realize that it is potentially a setup for failure...but im interested and stubborn so...

I was thinking that I might try to start really small and just build it in order to watch how adding new factors to the equation changes the end result.

The reason I was thinking of using a spider as the highest level predator is because they can survive without eating for long periods of time. Now thats not to say they do that by choice...but they definitely wont die from it. I have a Chilean rose hair that I have cared for for nearly 5 years and she has gone months without eating. Certainly long enough for feeder stock to repopulate. I guess it would be survival of the fittest in that case where only the crafty critters survive.

[Biology]

If its not "sealed" ie you let in air, its MUCH more forgiving.

I currently have a sealed aquatic 2.5 liter tank thats been running for 5-6 years no food, air or any additional resources, just add light. No joke, i know a guy who had one for 18 years though.. freaking unreal!

For what your talking about dont think "I will never add or take anything from the system. The best attitude to take is "see how long it will go." if its a palu it will be tricker but shouldn't be too bad I wouldnt be surprised if you could get one going maybe a year without doing anything? It will look like hell at the end let me tell you...


damn im getting picked up to go out for sushi! Ill write more later

[edward]

Would you be so kind as to point me towards some research papers or something of the like?

Having one go for a year would be really cool.

Would you tell me more about your sealed system?

[stimpy]

Originally Posted by edward

Hi everyone.

I am interested in experimenting with the intention of creating a self sustaining paludarium.

I have studied the construction process and am confident that I can handle the construction of the palu.

I would like this to be able to work in a 50 gallon or smaller glass tank.

A small amount of maintenance from me would be, in my opinion, still be acceptable for the experiment to be considered a success. For the most part, I would just want it to exist on its own.

Ideally, the palu would contain plants and animals that reproduce at a rate that is such that the next species up the food chain can survive off of them. That being said, here are my initial thoughts.

Some species of insect would need to be present in the palu. Perhaps something along the lines of a fruitfly. Low maintenance and reproduce quickly. These would be preyed upon by some fish. I was thinking about trying guppies. I have raised guppies in the past and they are very low maintenance. Depending on the tank setup, they can "self-regulate" their own population or it can grow fairly quickly. The guppies would provide food for some sort of predator, perhaps a turtle or tarantula (I think some species eat fish??). I would also like to consider having some sort of land creatures in the palu as well. Maybe some frogs/toads or geckos. These could provide food for another predator (tarantula?).

I have not been able to think up some creature that would be able to control plant growth.


I know that the limiting factor in this experiment will be figuring out how to balance everything.

Im hoping that some people here that have more experience with these types of plants and animals can offer me some advice on my project.

Id like to get a more carefully developed plan together before I attempt this and Im hoping the people on this forum can help me get to the point of actually attempting it.

**Also, my apologies for the poor structure of this thread.

Hi Edward,
welcome to the forum.
It sounds like a very interesting concept,but may require a bit more research.I was also intriged with the self contained sealed unit idea. A few years ago when I worked in the retail pet trade we used to sell nano cubes that were about 5"X5" had a tiny live plant and usually 2 zebra danios or 2 white cloud minnows.Once filled with water they were sealed,no filtration, no feeding the fish,no water evaporation. These "tiny tanks" would easily go for a year or longer before somebody died.I of course think iy is kinda cruel to put a living creature into such a small space, but that is just my opinion.I don't know how close you can get to "totally self sustaining" as someone else pointed out if one cookie crumbles,then their goes the neighborhood!Keep us posted with your ideas, sounds like your on to something??

[Biology]

Heres a couple good articles you should read if your interesting in the topic of sealed aquatic systems:

Straphanopoulos & Liepmann, 1985
Linhoff, Luke. 2006,