What can I keep together in my Paludarium?

[Rabbitthekitten]

When I was a kid I used to have a Paludarium containing Fish, Tree Frogs and Japanese Fire Belly and Red Spotted Newts. I was think of doing something similar now but maybe more ambitious, a large Rainforest environment with a waterfall flowing into a pool with a stream flowing into another and the rest (about 2/3) being land. I have figured out how to construct it all and regulate the temperature/humidity.

I was thinking of keeping fish and maybe shrimps in one of the pools and leaving the other empty. I would have large and climbing plants in in the Paludarium and would also keep Red Eyed Tree Frogs, Common Reed Frogs and possibly Land Hermit Crabs, some Gecko's of some description or possibly Anoles. I would also like to include some Newts or Salamanders. Would I be able to keep all of these together or would they kill/fight with each other? Which Lizards/Newts/Salamanders would people advise? Can I keep Land Hermit Crabs with these or will they try and eat everything else? I have kept crabs before, which will eat anything but never Hermit Crabs and have heard they are not so bad, they are also small.

Any advice would be gratefully received. I live in the UK if that makes any difference to the availability of species.

[beckdg]

you'll want to house them separately first to get to know their needs, quirks, etc. and watch for signs of fading health. once they're healthy and your routine is down pat with everything you can start mixing them carefully one by one. be sure to do plenty of research as you're likely not to get much help on this subject as in certain circles even talks of such is extremely taboo.

good luck and welcome to the site.

[froggsong]

It is VERY important that you keep each species separately for at LEAST 6 months before mixing them, for the reasons that beck outlined.

The crabs are a no, unfortunately, without an extremely specialized setup and tons of supervision.

RETFs are very sensitive, and may not be a good choice for a mixed tank.

Reed frogs would most likely become RETF food if kept together. (don't forget, a frog will eat anything that will fit in it's mouth. They go for food as soon as they see movement, and will sometimes even try to eat the same size frogs as themselves on accident because of that)

I'm not familiar with geckos, really, but if you did that, I'd suggest day geckos of some sort.

Green anoles are ok to mix with American Green Tree frogs and other small tree/reed/chorus frogs that require the same temps and humidity. Other anoles that get larger or that are more aggressive might be a bad choice.

Newts and/or salamanders generally require low temps and cold water to thrive (and even survive with some species), so they may not be a good choice either.

Your palu that you had set up as a kid, how long did you have it running? The animals listed should live at least 6yrs or so in captivity, and if it was up and running less than that, don't consider it a success to refer to when setting up the new tank.

Mixing so many species is really a recipe for disaster in alot of ways, unless you are very careful and vigilant.

Fish, as long as they are small enough for the water area and not toxic in any way are just fine (I use guppies in my palus, and I also have shrimp and khuli loaches in one). I don't really count them as mixing, and most others don't either, as the only way they are going to come in contact with an animal is if it tries to swim or go fishing, lol... The water is a separate system, in a way, so anything that stays in the water exclusively and will pose no threat if eaten is fine (don't forget to get things that stay small).

Also, I'm not one to generally say so, but the common consensus is that if you have to ask, you shouldn't be mixing, and I do agree with that, to a point. If you've never kept the species in question by themselves, then you don't know their habits and needs and how to spot stress, and if this is the case, I always tell people to keep them separately for at least 6 months, or don't do it at all. For those of us (myself included) that have been keeping animals for quite some time and have successfully kept mixed tanks for years, asking the question to get others input on mixing animals that you already have is different. I don't think that's the case here though, is it?

I'm not going to tell you no offhand like most people will. I greatly enjoy mixed tanks, but there is a way to do it and a way not to.

Take a look at my big palu, if you'd like. Here's the link: Evolution - 40G Breeder w/Eggcrate Topper. This tank is still a work in progress. It is currently only housing my J. splendida because my golden tree frog died of old age a few days ago (plus all the fishes and shrimp and snails).

[Rabbitthekitten]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice. You've given me a bit to think about. I used to keep a lot of things when I was a kid but had to give them up when I moved as I wasn't allowed pets in my apartment. The letting agent went ballistic when they found an aquarium! But I'm moving into a place with no such restrictions.

My previous set up was more of a temperate set up and was running for years. I split it up in the end as I needed the vivarium for something else as I had no spares big enough. But they lived together fine with no fatalities. The fish and fire bellied newts tended to stay in the water, the red spotted newts on the land and the tree frogs up in the plants/sides so didn't really come into contact with each other. :-P

I wasn't going to buy a set up and just throw everything in and hope for the best, I'm not so rash. I would have housed them separately at first for a while, it's more of a long term project over the next few years. I was just interested in other people thoughts, in my experience people are dead against the idea of mixing and won't even discuss it for whatever reason.

I take your point about Red Eye Tree Frogs being sensitive, also about Reed Frogs being a bit small. I'll have a re-think, do you have suggestions? Day Geckos tend to prefer a more temperate climate, as do Anoles, but there are small Geckos that are suitable for rainforest set-ups, it's just I've never seen them available Cosymbotus Platyurus for example. Newts and Salamanders are out I think, as I can't find any tropical species.

I'm just interested why you say the Hermit Crabs are a no? I used to keep them in a tropical set up for years and they thrived, I did give them salt water to sit in, but you can buy supplements for them these days which supply them with all of the salts that they need etc.

[Greg H.]

Originally Posted by froggsong

Also, I'm not one to generally say so, but the common consensus is that if you have to ask, you shouldn't be mixing, and I do agree with that, to a point. If you've never kept the species in question by themselves, then you don't know their habits and needs and how to spot stress, and if this is the case, I always tell people to keep them separately for at least 6 months, or don't do it at all. For those of us (myself included) that have been keeping animals for quite some time and have successfully kept mixed tanks for years, asking the question to get others input on mixing animals that you already have is different. I don't think that's the case here though, is it?

I'm going to have to second froggsong on this - the experience level that a mixed species tank requires, also says that you not only need to know the individual requirements of each occupant, but you need to know if their ecological niche is going to interfere with one or more of the other species.

Crabs ( even hermit crabs ) are fairly destructive, and for their size will cause more damage to their neighbors and the plants, than other animals will. they will try and sample everything that they can get their claws on.

In the confines of the Viv, the nighttime activities of the RETF's are likely to bother their neighbors as will the day time activities bother the RETF's.

Depending on the species of newt/salamander, they may secrete a toxin into the tank when they are stressed thus killing their neighbors ( even some common newts have some of the most powerful toxins known to man ), and depending on species both newts and salamanders are likely to eat your fish.

Further in a Viv, there is a danger that one species from one area could give a disease ( even one that does not appear to bother the first species ) to a different species - even one that is unrelated and especially if the two species are from different parts of the world and it is for this reason that it is discouraged. It is thought that one of the problems that frogs have is that a disease was transmitted from captive frogs from one part of the world to wild frogs in another part of the world.

[beckdg]

Originally Posted by Greg H.

I'm going to have to second froggsong on this - the experience level that a mixed species tank requires, also says that you not only need to know the individual requirements of each occupant, but you need to know if their ecological niche is going to interfere with one or more of the other species. PLUS SOME

Crabs ( even hermit crabs ) are fairly destructive, and for their size will cause more damage to their neighbors and the plants, than other animals will. they will try and sample everything that they can get their claws on. depends on the setup, but generally, yeah

In the confines of the Viv, the nighttime activities of the RETF's are likely to bother their neighbors as will the day time activities bother the RETF's.absolutely

Depending on the species of newt/salamander, they may secrete a toxin into the tank when they are stressed thus killing their neighbors ( even some common newts have some of the most powerful toxins known to man ), and depending on species both newts and salamanders are likely to eat your fish. not so much of an issue as it's made out to be. while the toxins they carry are (obviously) toxic the quantities are not such that death would be an issue. i'd worry more about growth stunting and overall health of the other critters if the enclosure wasn't cleaned thoroughly especially pertaining to having fresh water daily. now if an animal from outside of the newts general normal habitat were to say take a bite that might be a different story.

Further in a Viv, there is a danger that one species from one area could give a disease ( even one that does not appear to bother the first species ) to a different species - even one that is unrelated and especially if the two species are from different parts of the world and it is for this reason that it is discouraged. It is thought that one of the problems that frogs have is that a disease was transmitted from captive frogs from one part of the world to wild frogs in another part of the world. old world vs. new world... good point... and the foremost "disease" in frogs at this point is a worldwide epidemic (chytrid).

good points either way.

[Greg H.]

Originally Posted by beckdg

not so much of an issue as it's made out to be. while the toxins they carry are (obviously) toxic the quantities are not such that death would be an issue.

It depends on the species and the toxin they secrete - some species have been confirmed to secrete TTX ( Tetrodotoxin ) - the same stuff that makes puffer fish and Blue-ringed Octopus so deadly, and in that regard, only a half milligram can kill and adult human if injected.

Even the local of some species, can make a difference in the amount and type of toxin - I was reading a thing a couple of months ago, and about an arms race between a variety of newt and the local variety of common garter snake, and the newts are much more toxic than the rest of their species, because the snake has started to develop some tolerance to the newt toxin - so in that location the newts are becoming more and more toxic in order to try and stay off the snakes menu, while the snake is developing more tolerance to the toxin - it's believed that if the local snake has developed such a level of tolerance that even though they are stunned by the effects of eating one of the local newts, if one of the snakes were to feed on newts outside of that local area they would not be adversely affected by the comparatively low levels of toxin.

[beckdg]

Originally Posted by Greg H.

It depends on the species and the toxin they secrete - some species have been confirmed to secrete TTX ( Tetrodotoxin ) - the same stuff that makes puffer fish and Blue-ringed Octopus so deadly, and in that regard, only a half milligram can kill and adult human if injected.

Even the local of some species, can make a difference in the amount and type of toxin - I was reading a thing a couple of months ago, and about an arms race between a variety of newt and the local variety of common garter snake, and the newts are much more toxic than the rest of their species, because the snake has started to develop some tolerance to the newt toxin - so in that location the newts are becoming more and more toxic in order to try and stay off the snakes menu, while the snake is developing more tolerance to the toxin - it's believed that if the local snake has developed such a level of tolerance that even though they are stunned by the effects of eating one of the local newts, if one of the snakes were to feed on newts outside of that local area they would not be adversely affected by the comparatively low levels of toxin.

still... my statement holds true... there would have to be something attempting to eat them for them to be "toxic" which by definition means deadly. if nothing is attempting to eat them there are other side-effects you'd have to keep an eye out for... also touched upon in my statement.

your statement also supports the idea that an immunity can be built up to the toxins (species dependent of course).

froggy actually has one of the most toxic species (if not the most) and i've actually done some research for her regarding mixing and toxicity, etc.. i have no reason to remember all the details of our collective findings but surely she could elaborate a bit more... i'd think, maybe.

but, seriously... why would someone go through all the trouble to set everything up, do the research, quarantine, whatever... and then put an animal in the same enclosure with another one that would fit in its mouth?

[froggsong]

I do indeed own one of the most toxic animals on the planet. Enough tetrodotoxin to kill at least 8 grown men, lol... I am comfortable enough with her habits and personality that I am going to put her in my native tank to lower the number of tanks I'm running. That said, with a less calm individual, I don't think that I would risk it. Greg, where are you located? That arms race you are referring to is likely the one between the newt I have and the garters around these parts.

The thing with newts, and where I'm going to disagree with beck, is that something doesn't have to be trying to kill it for it to go into defensive mode. Most newts will curl up into a circle with their bellies showing, and begin to excrete their toxins through their skin, even when only startled. Some don't curl, but begin almost spewing forth a froth of toxins. It's too bad that I didn't take a pic of one that I found in my yard. All I did was lift something off of him and in less than a second his entire back was covered in a thick layer of toxin.

With some species (it can also be affected by whether they are WC or CB), the toxicity is much lower, and people mix them without any noticeable affects on other species, but generally those animals mixed with them have a shorter life span. All it takes is for one animal to be startled somehow, and you may lose another animal. Whether to take the risk is certainly one's personal decision, but it should be kept in mind that it IS a risk.

[beckdg]

i think we're seeing eye to eye froggy... i just didn't consider them squeezing it out like a juiced apple... and another animal possibly eating at that spot or feeders who've trampled through it, etc..

i still think as long as the newt isn't stressed the first thing to consider would be shortened life, effects on growth rate, etc.. maybe i'm totally off on that though.