Canada Day Weekend Build! : Clay Background Method

[Calebrez]

awesome! hey i got some kitty litter yesterday at petco and it said unscented but it has a fresh like scent when i added water. Is that ok to use as background clay? or do i need the completely unscented?

[beckdg]

i believe you're looking for 100% calcium bentonite.

[Grimm]

Originally Posted by froggsong

Hey Grimm, did you ever do another piece to test water resistance? I'm really wanting to try this, but the only tank I might do it in is my frog tank. I'm putting them in my bowfront now, instead of back into their 20g tall, and I'll be using a HOB filter to do a drip wall that will feed a pond. I'd like to do the litter BG and use it with the drip wall, but I want to be sure it will stand up to the water constantly running over it.

Oooops...Thanks for reminding me Froggy

After I finish my pizza I'll get right on that! haha, my bad!

[Grimm]

Originally Posted by beckdg

i believe you're looking for 100% calcium bentonite.

Calcium bentonite is the best option, however sodium bentonite will work just the same. I believe someone did more research on what this Kitty Litter is composed of and it is mainly sodium bentonite. Calcium bentonite is the best because it is believed that the substrate microfauna, and feeders will absorb and pick up the calcium from the clay, and in turn supplement the frogs. Thats why calcium bentonite based substrates are now used often.

I think for my next BG experiment, I'll try to find some calcium bentonite in its powdered form by itself, or mixed with redart clay aswell. We'll see what I can find around my area.

[Greg H.]

Originally Posted by Grimm

Calcium bentonite is the best option, however sodium bentonite will work just the same. I believe someone did more research on what this Kitty Litter is composed of and it is mainly sodium bentonite. Calcium bentonite is the best because it is believed that the substrate microfauna, and feeders will absorb and pick up the calcium from the clay, and in turn supplement the frogs. Thats why sodium bentonite based substrates are now used often.

"Thats why sodium bentonite based substrates are now used often"

I don't get what you are saying - don't you mean "calcium bentonite" rather than sodium bentonite?

Is there any data that supports the theory that calcium bentonite is going to add nutritional calcium or is this a "it sounds correct so it must be true", thing ?

Please don't get me wrong, I not trying to rain on anyone's parade, I just trying to get to the actual science, because everything I hear ( on this and other forums ) is that plants don't necessarily like being planted in a heavy clay, and line plants many types of micro-fauna are unable to burrow through a heavy clay. From the stand point of many years of gardening, while clay is great for holding water - it's also very poor at allowing air to reach roots - thus they often smother , and this is why you amend clay garden soils with organic matter ( mixing it in ) to lighten the soil, making it easier for roots to penetrate and for both water to drain and air to reach the roots.

I was doing some research on clay and calcium to see if a calcium based clay does add nutritional calcium, and while I couldn't find any support for calcium bentonite, I did find this little blurb on Wiki, about NASA using a type of red clay to provide nutritional calcium to astronauts:

The effects of weightlessness on human body were studied by NASA back in the 1960s. Experiments demonstrated that weightlessness leads to a rapid bone depletion, so various remedies were sought to counter that. A number of pharmaceutical companies were asked to develop calcium supplements, but apparently none of them were as effective as clay. The special clay that was used in this case was Terramin, a reddish clay found in California. Dr. Benjamin Ershoff of the California Polytechnic Institute demonstrated that the consumption of clay counters the effects of weightlessness. He reported that "the calcium in clay ...is absorbed more efficiently ... [clay] contains some factor or factors other than calcium which promotes improved calcium utilization and/or bone formation." He added, "Little or no benefit was noted when calcium alone was added to the diet"
( Medicinal clay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Doing some further checking I found that Terramin clay ( or stuff claiming to
be Terramin ) is currently in demand in some areas of the health food industry and as such is available on-line - even at Amazon.com ......


Now that being said, my gardening background tells me that clay in moderation and mixed with organic matter ( not just having the organic mater on top ) is more biologically active ( and thus more productive ) and as such is also more likely to get on and be eaten by the micro fauna, and a mixed substrate is also going to allow more critters to be able to burrow through it - which is part of what what we want, isn't it?



It really seams to me that searching this forum and Dendroboard, that there was a real quick change from using clay granules mixed in the substrate to an almost pure clay "slab" as substrate and then another quick change to using another almost pure clay "slab" as the background material - and while I can accept ( and plan on using ) some clay in the substrate, the speed of the change make me wonder if the science is sound, or if it isn't just another fad that people are using to try and make their tank as successful as someone else's tank ( who happened to use lot's of clay ).


I'm not saying that trying to have a awesome tank is a bad thing, but in some ways, what I am hearing and seeing on the forums, is that it appears that people are deciding that they are going to use clay just because someone else did - and in some cases, it really doesn't matter what type of clay it is, or what is in it, or where it came from, they are going to use it because it's what they have and everyone else is using clay ( this is what I'm talking about when I say that the subject has the earmarks of a fad ) - they don't know why they should or should not be using clay ( or even what type should not be used ).

[RecycledAgain]

I understand what your asking Greg, and I don't think anyone believes your being argumentative.

I agree the plain cat litter is over simplified for use as a substrate, I also don't think thats what was the intention of Grimm's post.

The idea for clay substrates is geared at mimicking soil samples from dart frog habitats. The results from the soil samples are used as the baseline and and the experimentation begins. The number of ideas and methods is actually pretty impressive and the results appear to be positive.

This could very well be a fad, but I don't think so.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...te-thread.html

Dan

[Greg H.]

I have read the ultimate clay thread about a dozen times now, and between the ultimate clay thread, this thread, and this one - I am left with the feeling that people are starting to move along the if some is good, more is better theory especially as I'm seeing people start to use a practically solid clay slab ( even if it is mixed with coir and a few other things ), and and a solid clay slab is not what they are talking about in the ultimate clay thread - in that thread they are talking about clay granules that are loose in which micro fauna can move in and around them.

I have even read where people are bragging about how unlike a humus substrate, a clay substrate will out live them, because it's not going to change.

If I am understanding the use of clay as a substrate properly, the theory of an unchanging substrate is incorrect, because it has to change in order to do the proper job - it has to change chemical, biologically and physically, as a biologically active soil always changes.


If the idea is to start with a baseline and experiment, then where is the data for the results of the experimentation?

The way people are going about it, it feels as if folks have decided that the experiment is over and it's time to move en mass to a clay substrate ( in fact even in the ultimate clay thread there are some folks that are thinking that clay is a "silver bullet", and are asking for a sure fire formula that will give fantastic plants and healthy animals - without even wanting to know how or why it's supposed to work ).

[froggsong]

Interesting arguments, Greg. I think one of the reasons it may become a "fad" is the ease of construction, price, and quick setup time for the BG.

I feel I must ask though, unless one uses the wrong clay, or someone points out some sort of hazzard that these clay BGs might pose, couldn't it be more beneficial that a BG made of an expanded petroleum product? Or even better than something like concrete, which can burn the skin of delicate amphibians if not cured properly? Also, while plant roots may not easily penetrate a clay substrate, and it may smother the roots, isn't it easier for some climbing plants to attach to a clay BG than one made of foam that is covered in silicone, or a BG made of concrete? Fad or not, the benefits outweigh some of your arguments, IMO. For example, while folks on other sites are using clay as the substrate as well, no one on THIS site is doing that (or at least not talking about it). Grimm used the clay for his BG and then used a soil mix for the substrate. The folks that are planning to or already trying this are also only using it for the BG, using it as a substrate hasn't even been discussed (until now, lol). I think as an all natural, cheap, and easy method to construct a BG, it has alot of things in it's favor. The thing I see as possibly being a problem is the clay drying out and possibly breaking down, or being damaged by being CONSTANTLY wet (if used for a waterfall, for example). That's why I'm hoping that Grimm will do a test with it. If it can't be allowed to dry out or be used for waterfalls, that limits the types of enclosures it can be used in. Remember, on this site not everyone is housing darts. Many of us house varieties of herps, including dessert species. What I want to see is a BG that is made in a similar fashion that can be used in ALL environments.

Honestly, I am personally ALWAYS on the lookout for cheaper, easier, faster, nicer looking BG techniques that are SAFE for our pets. The more we can reduce the money we spend to set up tanks and keep from spending money at the big box pet stores that abuse the herps they sell, the better!

[froggsong]

Ok, so I posted that before you posted your last post, Greg, and after reading your post and clicking that link, I MUST point out that that is NOT our average member. NOT AT ALL. Have you watched his youtube "videos" that he links to so rudely? Have you paid any attention to his attitude? As far as I can tell, that kid must be like 12 or 13. People like that, that are going to do what they want regardless of what people tell them is safe, are NOT the people to base arguments like this on. Only an idiot is going to read what that kids says and say to himself, "Hey! That guy really knows his stuff! I'm going to do what he did!".

I apologize for the tone of my post, and I assure you that I am not being argumentative, that kid just irks my nerves something awful. It's people like that that give the hobby a bad rep, IMO. It's just that kind of thread that I hate to let stick around on the forum, but unless I have a legitimate reason to delete it, all I can do is try to correct it for future readers.

[Grimm]

Greg, I meant Calcium Bentonite substrates...My bad...And Edited

Also, I don’t mean to say that the substrate is solely made from clay...I believe the approximate amount is roughly 25-30% bentonite. I read that people let a large flat piece of clay dry up, and then they break it up and mix it into the substrate so it can degrade over time. As you can see from Reclycled's link, this fad has been going on for some time and there seems to be quite a lot of research put into it. I definitely don’t know much about it, and haven’t even gotten 1/4 of the way through that thread. But the reason the switch to clay based substrates is happening, is because dart enthusiasts are trying to mimic the natural environment from where they are naturally occuring. Clay based substrates may not be optimal for plant growth, but they help with sustaining substrate micro fauna and to replicate the natural environment. Because of this, many tanks don’t even have an abundance of plants rooted in the substrate. They are typically mounted epiphytically and then the substrate is solely covered in leaf litter. If you were to look at a jungle floor, it would look very similar to this and this is what everyone is trying to replicate. I’m not a fan of this “style” and don’t plan of setting up any of my vivs in this manner, but I can see why everyone is doing it. With my current and future tanks, I’ll be doing a mixture of the old and new ways of thinking. I’ll have sections of substrate covered in moss for aesthetics, and other sections covered with multiple layers of leaf litter to provide breeding ground for micro fauna. I think meeting in the middle will satisfy my own need for an aesthetically pleasing viv, and the darts needs at the same time.

We could probably go on about this for a long time, but I think it’s best to make another substrate thread if it is to continue since this is just a simple build thread

On that note, I have made very little progress on my tank....I’m still trying to make the grapevine water tight so that it doesn’t leak into my substrate area. It is really driving me up the wall haha. I picked up a fairly descent sized chunk of java moss last night, I am still planning on checking out some broms from a fellow frogger in town, and I am about to send a letter down to Florida so it can be sent back up to me full of magnolia leaves. Hopefully I can have it fully planted within 1-2 weeks. I’ll keep you guys posted on any visual progress as it happens!

And one more thing....I have a pyramid of clay sitting inside my viv. I’ll be letting it cure for another 1.5 days, then I will have water running over it to test how well this kitty litter clay mixture can withstand being constantly wet.