Research to Find HabaCrete Alternative

[Judy S]

What a quick reply!! What did you seal the acrylic/Permastone/sand mix with--I sort of saw a "sealer" in the background...At Michael's they have a new spray acrylic sealer that is supposedly a matte finish... What was the form of the epoxy that you used...little tubes that you combine?? How did you apply it?? And I noticed a waterfall on the left side...details would be nice in how you constructed it...I'm having problems trying to formulate a plan after having failed miserably with my first attempt...

[owenz]

And that isn't even getting to Sanitred. I will need to devote a whole separate thread to using sanitred in vivarium/aquatic projects. Stuff is amazing.

[owenz]

Judy,

Don't trust the products you see in the background of my pictures. Haha, this project involved a lot of trial and error, and I don't want you inadvertently following any of my errors. Also, you'll have to trust me when I say that my waterfall design consists of (a.) building something that has a slope, (b.) drilling a hole at the top of the slop, (c.) sticking an airline tube through the hole, (d.) hooked the airline up to a small water pump. Pump water to top of slope via airline, water runs down slope via gravity. Rinse, repeat. There are others on this board with much more elegant water feature designs.

Sealants and epoxies are another matter though! So let's talk about them. During this mega-project, I was obviously concerned with the fact that much of my construction pieces would be subjected to the harsh effect of being constantly submerged in very warm, somewhat salty (brackish), turbulent water. Thus, water-proofing and sealing was of great concern to me. Before getting into the specific products, I think it's important to make a distinction between a "sealant" and a construction material, however. To me, a "sealant" water-proofs and protect a finished product while – and this is the key feature - preserving the piece's appearance and aesthetic value. In contrast to the aesthetically-driven purpose of a "sealant", there are construction materials with water-sealing properties, such as silicone and Sanitred. The difference being that such construction materials are a fundamental ingredient in the construction of the piece itself; they are integral to the design and construction of the piece. Meanwhile, a "sealant" merely preserves and protects what has already been built. I say this, in part, because one of the features of Permastone itself, is that it is generally water proof. In this regard, when I talk about "sealing" Permastone pieces, I'm talking about enhancing and strengthening Permastone's inherent waterproof nature far more than I suggesting that a typical Permastone piece needs to be "sealed".

Having made this distinction, let's talk about sealants. Over the course of the project, I experimented with shellac, polyurethane, non-toxic grout sealers, acrylic sealants, submersible floor coatings and more. Of primary concern was that my main building product – Permastone – has an almost glass-like quality, hard-but-brittle, very much like marble in its pure, hardened form. (Practical note: one reason to always tint each layer of Permastone with paint is that untinted Permastone is both very white and somewhat prone to chipping; if the underneath layers are not tinted, a chip will be very visibly white). I want to be clear: Permastone's somewhat brittle marble-like quality is unlikely to be a problem in the merely moist environment of a dart frog habitat, but submerged under salty water, constantly pounded by pump driven currents, subject to the splashing force of water dumped into the tank for water changes...well, I had some concerns about its durability. So I thought: I need to find something that will seal this stuff up and make it truly water-proof and strong.

(To be clear, the purpose of this story is help others avoid my mistakes. Which is why I'm explaining my thought process, as I go to illustrate where these ideas came from.)

Because my Permastone construction pieces were just so damned pretty, my sealant search first focused on products like non-toxic grout sealant – a thin, watery product that promises to "bond" with porous materials, etc. without altering its apperance. (As it turns out, one of the "sealant" products I can recommend to people is AMF Safecoat Grout Sealer: AFM Safecoat. What I like about Safecoat Grout Sealer is not, in fact, its "sealant" affect for waterproofing purposes. Rather, it seems to create a layer of different, non-brittle strength to a piece when applied in between coats of Permastone. I noticed a few times that when I chipped a Permastone piece, the chip would go no deeper than the first Safecoat layer. Plus, it's non-toxic, inexpensive, dries super fast, and a little goes a long way. But back to sealants!)

Ultimately, as I moved through all these sealant products, what I discovered is that for the most part, a "coating" is only as strong as the surface it coats. For example, wood coating products shellac and polyurethane will waterproof just about anything (as between the two, shellac is much better and pet-safer), but if you are coating a porous or brittle or vulnerable surface with shellac or polyurethane, these coating are not going to fundamentally increase the strength of the piece. In short: if the biggest flaw with Permastone is that it chips when banged around, the chipping problem is not solved by coating it with shellac, polyurethane, grout sealant or other relatively thin coatings. The piece will probably still chip when banged around, regardless of the coating.

Which brings me to epoxy. Epoxy is no "sealant", at least as I defined the term above. Epoxy is a two-part adhesive that cures (dries) by chemical interaction between the two parts. Epoxy is very, very, very strong. (How strong? An example of epoxy's strength is this: remember a few years ago when that three-ton ceiling panel in the "Big Dig" tunnel in Boston fell down and crushed some poor woman in her car? The reason the ceiling panel fell is because the designers abandoned roughly 5,000 years of human architectural experience that said three-ton objects suspended in air should be secured and fixed with stuff like giant steel hooks and chains, with said hooks/chains attached to a fixed structure with connectors such as gigantic nuts and bolts, which can support the weight. So why did that three-ton Big Dig ceiling panel fall? Because the Big Dig engineers used EPOXY to stick the three-ton concrete panels to the roof of the tunnel! No gigantic nuts and bolts relying on mechanical strength...just really strong adhesive strength...e.g. glue.)

So...how strong is epoxy? Clearly, not strong enough to support a three-ton ceiling panel indefinitely, but strong enough to make a bunch of pretty smart engineers THINK it could do the job. Which means that epoxy is pretty darn strong.

Cured epoxy is inert and essentially pet-safe and person-safe. Prior to curing/drying, however, you will find liquid epoxy to be a noxious, fairly toxic product, full of all kinds of nasty VOC's, skin irritants and other bad stuff. Once cured, as I said, epoxy is near-universally regarded as totally inert and non-reactive. (Epoxy is routinely used in marine reef tank aquariums. As a former reef-keeper, I can tell you that a reef tank represents the absolute apex in terms of chemically-sensitive, unforgivingly difficult environments for any hobbyists to maintain. A dart frog is freaking indestructible compared to your average coral.)

All that said, despite the near-universal acceptance of cured epoxy's safety for people/pets, there is a bit of debate about what type of epoxy works best when totally submerged under water. How much of the debate arises out of the desire to sell "special" epoxy products, I don't know. But the basic epoxy formula has been around for 50 years, and you don't hear much about it being toxic. Still, for those of you who don't want to try just any epoxy in their habitat, take a look here for some specialized epoxy products that are specially designed for submersed aquatic conditions:

Cycloaliphatic Epoxy Resin & Epoxy Curing Agents

In any event, cured/dried epoxy is incredibly strong, water resistant and basically indestructible. Unlike the "coatings" I describe above, which are only as strong as the underlying medium, epoxy is thick and pasty, and provides tremendous independent strength to your piece. Indeed, an epoxy-coated piece is so strong that the properties of the underlying material are almost irrelevant. Coat your Permastone with epoxy and it really isn't Permastone anymore – it's now epoxy. (Cue Obi-Wan: "He's more machine now than man; twisted and evil." Obviously this quote means that if Permastone is your average guy, then epoxy is like Darth Vader. Which is to say, a pretty badass improvement, although you lose a few "natural" features.)

Anyway, iif epoxy is so great, why doesn't everyone use it? The "problem" with epoxy is two-fold:

(1.) Prior to drying, epoxy is noxious and fairly toxic. It is also difficult to work with, having a viscous, syrup-like consistency that makes spreading and applying it a messy, time-consuming job. It also requires mixing and needs to be applied quickly before hardening. Then it needs to cure/dry someplace where the fumes won't give you cancer. Epoxy is an all around pain in the ass, really.

(2.) Cured epoxy looks artificial. It is shiny and, well, fake looking. A Permastone/acrylic/sand mix has a nice, realistic matte finish. It looks like real rock. Until you coat it with epoxy. Then not so much.

[owenz]

The Solution to Fake Epoxy Shine

So, after all of my experiments with coatings and sealants, I ultimately turned to epoxy because I wanted something that would turn my carefully constructed Permastone pieces into totally water-proof, indestructible items. That meant using a two-part epoxy. If I had to go back and do it again, I'd probably order my epoxy from here:

Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

That said, I used a basic, "clear", marine epoxy – which worked fine. I have no solution for the noxious, hard-to-work with features of uncured epoxy. It is what it is. But I can tell you this: part of what makes Permastone so great is that it is totally non-toxic, can easily be mixed with non-toxic paint for color, and sand for texture, and it can be applied in consistencies ranging from watery to thick and pasty, simply by mixing in more or less water. It cleans up with soap and water. Thus, Permastone is a supremely flexible and easy to use product, that is totally non-toxic, dries quickly, and serves varying construction purposes, from coating and water-proofing (e.g. covering a foam structure), to crack filling (like mortar/grout), to providing primary structural strength and integrity (like concrete). I say all of this because, compared to epoxy, Permastone rocks. Which is to say: build your structure out of Permastone. Only bust out the epoxy after you have got the whole thing built. Then, to cure the fake shininess of epoxy, just coat the epoxy with more Permastone.

Let me give you an example. In the image below, I created the fake rocks by spraying Handifoam and letting it dry (there are some driftwood pieces embedded in the fake rocks too). I then used a dremel (which works amazingly well for sculpting both Handifoam and Great Stufff) to shape my fake rocks. I then coated the foam structure repeatedly with my Permastone/acrylic/sand mix. Eventually, I had what I would consider to be a fundamentally water-proof piece of nice, real looking fake rock. However, where Permastone represents something akin to a relatively thin shell of glass-like-marble, and where this piece would be submerged permanently underwater, there would be a certain fragility to stopping at the Permastone stage. As much as I like Permastone as a product, I just don't know if can hold up under the totally submerged, salty conditions this tank would expose it to. Having decided that most of the coatings were of limited use, I went with epoxy.

I applied the epoxy over the Permastone fake rock structure. As you can see, once cured it was shiny and fake looking – as it typical for epoxy. On the flip side, the epoxy coated area was now incredibly strong and solid, almost like it was constructed out of hard plastic. The Handifoam and Permastone basically no longer existed, as a practical matter. The piece was now made out of epoxy. And cured epoxy is inert, non-reactive, and really really strong. This is good. But there is that fake shine...



Darn. All that hard work making such realistic looking fake rock, and now my epoxy rock was shiny and fake looking. What do to? The solution was actually really easy: just coat the epoxy with more Permastone! I simply mixed a new batch of Permastone/acrylic/sand and applied several layers over the epoxied areas. The Permastone mix stuck just fine, and after a few coats, it was impossible to tell the difference between the epoxied and non-epoxied sections. Both had the same nice, natural matte appearance that the Permastone/acrylic/sand mix initially provides:



In summary: I have no concerns with the toxicity of Permastone, or even it's fundamental water-resistant attributes. Unless your piece will be totally submerged under fairly deep and flowing water, I think Permastone is more than capable of standing up to the dampness of a vivarium. I am less certain of Permastone's ability to stand up over time under totally submersed/aquatic conditions. To be clear, I am not particularly concerned that Permastone will "leech" into the water under such conditions, but rather that it will simply wear out, crack and/or degrade structurally, thus exposing potentially problematic materials underneath, like Handifoam, to the water. Warm salt water has a way of wrecking stuff, after all.

In my opinion, by coating a finished Permastone piece with a high quality marine epoxy, you essentially render that piece indestructible, inert, and water-proof. Having done so, the somewhat brittle nature of Permastone becomes totally irrelevant; the epoxy provides the strength. When you apply several surface coatings of Permastone/acrylic/sand mix over the epoxy, these coatings are largely just for appearance, although they retain the generally tough, solid properties that Permastone provides.

To close, I will note that my final Permastone/epoxy method is a little bit ironic. After all, we have long known that most materials – even concrete, pH problems be damned – can basically be coated with epoxy to the point that they are sealed up and rendered safe and inert. So epoxy has always been out there as an option. The "missing link" that Permastone fills is the search for a concrete substitute that does not require epoxy coating; a product with concrete-like properties that can be used for basic construction without the pH problems associated with concrete itself. As far as I can tell, Permastone is, indeed, a true non-reactive concrete substitute. It is not, however, concrete – which is to say, I would not build a house on a foundation built out of Activa Permastone. Permastone is good and strong, but it isn't concrete. Which is another way of saying that if you took away the pH issues and rendered it inert, I would not feel the need to coat submerged concrete with epoxy. Concrete is plenty strong on its own. With Permastone under water, I think the epoxy is helpful.

My choice to coat my Permastone creations with epoxy, then re-coat the epoxy simply illustrates Permastone's versatility. If the great problem with epoxy has always been its fake appearance, Permastone quickly and easily solves this problem. And in environments where the incredible strength of epoxy is basically overkill, non-epoxied Permastone is more than adequate for sealing, water-proofing and constructing structures – whether you are coating the foam "back wall" of the vivarium (trust me, coconut husk sticks to a wet coat of Permastone about a million times better than it sticks to silicone, looks a billion times better, and is a trillion times less messy and time consuming than the silicone method), creating fake rocks, or building just about anything else.

In closing, I'm happy to take a little credit for putting Permastone to the test, at least initially. I will warn you that I'm neither a chemist nor an architect; I'm just an amateur hobbyist, and my tank has only been running about a month. My opinions and observations are not based on any specialized knowledge, and I could be wrong in much of what I say. If the whole thing collapses, I'll let you know. If you relied on my descriptions in the meantime...well, you've been warned. This post is, as they say, "purely informational" in nature, and should not be regarded as "advice". That disclaimer aside, the real credit for Permastone is not mine. It goes to fc3schick87.

For better or worse, this thread is called 'Research to Find HabaCrete Alternative', but really, the title is a bit of a misnomer. To the extent that "HabaCrete" is even a patented, trade-marked product – and I seriously doubt that it is – I don't think fc3schick87 ever set out to figure out the ingredients in "HabaCrete". She certainly wasn't trying to compete with "HabaCrete". She just wanted a Coke to HabaCrete's Pepsi, which is to say, a vivarium-safe concrete substitute; something hobbyists have long sought, and HabaCrete appeared to provide. Due credit to HabaCrete's creator for showing it is possible, but the slow, methodical process of investigating, obtaining and experimenting with various products had nothing to do with "HabaCrete", and everything to do with fc3schick87's persistence, resourcefulness and intelligence. She wanted to find something different and she did.

With that in mind, I want to thank fc3schick87 for her hard work. I purchased Permastone and began working with for one reason and one reason only: because fc3schick87 laid out a logical, well-structured hypothesis that suggested Permastone would work. As far as I can tell, she was right.

So cheers to fc3schick87. My mudskippers owe her a great debt of gratitude. As for me...well, considering that it was her idea that led to me starting a project that stole five months from my life and cost me a fortune, I'm not sure if she has been a 100% healthy influence on my life, but the girl obviously rocks. So thanks. This really, really long post is dedicated to her.

-- Jason

[fc3schick87]

Originally Posted by Judy S

I totally agree with you about the value of her research...but do have a question about your foam--where did you get it??? Am not aware that there is an alternative to GS...and, I was under the impression not to use cedar in a viv--another wrong piece of advice??? Handifoam...hmmm

great stuff makes a product "for pond and stone" which is also gray/black but i cant find it in store. handifoam looks like its pretty much identical to the color of great stuff for pond and stone. its not uncommon for one type of product to be made by many manufactures.

once set, this foam should be non toxic.

if you get it on your hands though, it is really difficult to get off, if you get it on your clothes, forget about it!

[owenz]

I have several new sets of "work jeans" that can attest to the unmatched stain-making ability of Handifoam. Incidentally, I am pretty sure Handifoam and Great Stuff are entirely separate. I have a feeling that the Great Stuff "pond" formula was basically a response to so many people using their product for pet-related projects, but like you, I've never actually found the stuff for sale. I buy all my Handifoam and black aquarium silicone on Ebay from "fastoolsnow" (Handifoam) and and "technologylk" (silicone). The Handifoam is $5.49 a can with $8.99 shipping, with shipping not increasing much for multiple cans.

A couple of additional notes on Permastone and my tank. One thing to note is that, prior to adding fish, I completed about five full water changes, using hot bath water to fill the tank, with two heaters running on high at all times between water changes. The high temp was suggested by Frank of Frank's Aquarium as a strategy for making sure that "anything that was going to leech out, did leech out" prior to adding fish. I have also been running heavy carbon and chemi-pure in the canister filter since the final full water change as an extra precaution. Finally, where any new tank can be subject to "new tank syndrome", I will add that my LFS was kind enough to give the filthy filter pad from their brackish mudskipper tank - which I used to seed the bacterial culture.

In the month that the tank has been running, I have been somewhat judicious in making water changes as I have let the nitrogen cycle play out.

[Judy S]

I totally agree with the thanks you are giving to her and all her research...----
-
"With that in mind, I want to thank fc3schick87 for her hard work. I purchased Permastone and began working with for one reason and one reason only: because fc3schick87 laid out a logical, well-structured hypothesis that suggested Permastone would work. As far as I can tell, she was right."


Your post was really well written, thought out...and easy to follow. Your experience with the different products definitely helps to not reinvent the wheel-- Perhaps you should post to the "other" board with your helpful info....thanks to you both...Judy S

[owenz]

Judy,

I will play on the non-half-water side once I step up my game on the terrestrial plant front!

[titansfever83]

Just as a quick follow up on my Viv build. I ordered (4) 28oz bags of Permastone along with some acrylic paint from ArtSuppliesOnline.com - Art Supplies, Painting Supplies, Craft Supplies and Much More! Three of the four bags I ordered are on backorder so I decided to go ahead and use up the one bag that was already shipped to me.

My BG is approx. 18"wide x 21"tall with a lot of caves, crevices, cracks in it for a nice rock look. Activa suggests a 3:1(Permastone to water) ratio but I went with a more watered down mix at almost a 3:2 ratio. I was hoping that thinner layers and more coats would result in a much sturdier outcome. My first layer had some trouble filling the small porous holes in the foam, no biggie. Second layer I decide to add some brown acrylic paint "just in case" i was to chip the final product that I would not have a white dried chunk of Permastone staring at me. OK, third layer I mixed in a little black paint. (I did allow approx. 3 hr cure time between coats even though this stuff sets up in about 20-30 minutes)

Now I'm out of Permastone awaiting the rest of my order. Bored and wanting to continue progress, I decide to temporarily setup the FB and BG and run a test on my water feature. My water feature kind of looks like those little ant farms you can by at a toy store, meaning I carved my waterfall/waterslide into the 4" thick foam piece until it winds down to a small pond in the bottom of the tank. Everything plumbed and water running for about 2hrs, I noticed my brown paint started to show where the end of my pump tubing hit the waterfall/waterslide. No panic, I check back about 3hrs later and I can begin to see my foam again.

Now this was just a test run to make sure my water feature did not rush over the sides of my carved out waterslide. I had only applied 3 thin coats of Permastone @ just shy of a 3:2 ratio. As a side note, I don't have a large submersible filter running, it's a Mini-jet 404 with a max head height of 29". And I have it at 23" so not a lot of pressure coming out.

Now Permastone says it's water-resistant, maybe so if it's soaking in stagnant water but not with any type of flowing water over it. So to help make my hard work last a little longer, I am now taking a step back to find some type of sealant just for my water feature. I do believe that for the rest of my BG that will just get the typical moisture and misting, that the Permastone will work just fine. I'm not sure if any ingredients added to permastone may help the strength of it against flowing water, but it's worth a shot to look into that. I will more than likely just put something over the Permastone because my finished product will have various sized gravels siliconed in the path of the water to give it a more natural look overall.

Just thought I would share that with you guys so you didn't have to worry about patching your BG once you have the thing already setup and frogs living in it.

[owenz]

titans,

A good marine epoxy will provide an unbreakable permanent seal. You can then recoat the epoxy with Permastone to eliminate any unattractive glossiness. In my experience, you will need to use more than three coats of Permastone for most projects. Instead of waiting for each coat to set for three hours, you will be better off adding layer after layer after layer, as soon as it sets - which should be 20-60 minutes, depending on what you are mixing it with. After applying many layers, give it a good 24-36hrs to dry all the way out.

In any event, Permastone certainly isn't indestructible. Heavy water flow is almost certain to cause erosion, especially if is thin. What I can say with some confidence, however, is that Permastone appears non-toxic and non-reactive; even if some of it wears away, it shouldn't hurt anything.

Although I did not try it, I am sure you could add some acrylic hardener to Permastone. In high-flow areas, however, my preference has been to coat with marine epoxy - which provides a better seal than anything - then apply some Permastone on top of the epoxy for cosmetic purposes. In my opinion, Permastone is a great non-toxic way to sculpt hardscapes and coat artificial-looking surfaces like foam or epoxy. However, under heavy water flow, I have my doubts about its durability in terms of structural integrity.