Research to Find HabaCrete Alternative

[fc3schick87]

EDIT ADDED BY froggsong: This thread has been removed from the HabbaCrete review thread located here. Please click the link to go to the original thread if you are interested.

(from my research so far) habacrete is most likely a form of plaster (read page 3 for update)

pottery plaster is calcium sulfate hemihydrate , crystalline silica and 5% portland cement, pottery plaster is intended for repeat use for cast moldings of wet clay.

calcium sulfate hemihydrate is non toxic.

this 5% of portland cement is not enough to drastically change the ph run off of water, but enough to strengthen the plaster and give it a resistance to weather. i have done a 12 hour test with ph reading of water prior to soaking, and a long over night soak with another ph reading of the water. ph only raised one point. from 7 to 8, good soil will naturally correct this ph change as it is slight.

pottery plater has a 7-14 min work time being more or less depending on method of mixing and water to plaster ratio. habacrete also has the same work period.
habacrete indicates its ready for reptile use in less then 24 hours. pottery plaster takes about 30 min to fully set up and is fully dried out in about 24 hours as indicated by the label.

my testing indicates that habacrete if not pottery plaster, is some sort of plaster mix. habacrete is a plaster varrient mixed with an aggregate to create better texture and high build


this is my test of pottery plaster mixed with sand, and then wet washed with dark acrylic paint.




dont spend 10$ per pound and the headache of dealing with herpinvert. go to your local hobby store. hobby lobby carries this stuff under 2 different lables.



above it says plaster of paris, for molding. it is the same as pottery plaster as it has the same item number, it does infact say plaster of paris but it is the pottery plaster mix. i have contacted usg to verify all this information.

usg manufactures this product and it can be found in bulk online here.
Plaster.com - Pottery Plaster - USG® Pottery Plaster is great for all types of ceramic slip casting applications.
full data sheet of product and toxicology of it can be found here
http://www.anchsand.com/LinkClick.as...aster_MSDS.pdf



heres some other links related to herp invert

HerpInvert Brand Vivarium Supplies



if they weren't so difficult to deal with.... i would have bought the product and never investigated alternative routs instead.


edit: 3-26-2011

so you dont have to read teh whole thread. ... habacrete is activa' brand Perma-stone which can be ordered in large quantity from the distribution in northern texas. look on their website and call for more details

it can also be bought from michaels craft store.

it is about 1.50 a lb if you buy 7lb box of it in store. or about 1$ or less per pound if you order a huge bag of it. but shipping may be pricey.

it is non toxic and weather resistant it is also inert., it is a poly plaster which sets up with in 20 min. i did 4 coats in one hour and was finished in an hour. it does not contain gypsen so it will not break down in water. it will wear like any normal concrete will wear over time. weathering naturally .

[froggsong]

looks great! I might have to give the mix a try. It's good that you took the time to figure out how the habbacrete might be made. We definitely appreciate you sharing it with us.

[fc3schick87]

Originally Posted by froggsong

looks great! I might have to give the mix a try. It's good that you took the time to figure out how the habbacrete might be made. We definitely appreciate you sharing it with us.

just make sure you mix it with a fine powder like sand. play sand for instance. play sand is usually right next to concrete at home depot. but lowes has better quality play sand

or if you want to spend the extra money, use reptile sand like i did, only cuz i had it laying around the house and just grabbed it and tossed it in.


i think i used a 40% mix of aggregate to plaster, their site says to not go more then 30% but i think thats cuz it already has some in it. experiment and have fun. the stuff isnt expensive at all to work with.

[beckdg]

so firing isn't necessary? i ask because it is indicated on the website and from mom's old days as a pottery hobbyist everything was almost always fired. ::scratches head::

[fc3schick87]

Originally Posted by beckdg

so firing isn't necessary? i ask because it is indicated on the website and from mom's old days as a pottery hobbyist everything was almost always fired. ::scratches head::

pottery plaster is not a ceramic product. it is used in the pottery making proses. google "ceramic slip cast" or "slip casting"

they use 2 part molds and poor a liquid ceramic into the mold. poor out the excess, and repeat, building up ceramic product inside the mold. once it dries for a while they then remove the mold and are left with a replica.

the molds are what are made out of the pottery plaster. its a quick setting plaster that is use to make these molds. its resistant to water and its tough enough to with stand many uses.

its also used for hobbies to create molds. but its also used to poor into latex and flexible molds to create the replica itself.

its quite versatile

[beckdg]

can i be confident enough to make say a streambed with this as the sole means of holding the water flow? as-in, with no special sealant?

also, this is what i found:
when i was here: Plaster.com - Pottery Plaster - USG® Pottery Plaster is great for all types of ceramic slip casting applications.

there was a link that looked like this: Physical Properties (Click here)

on the last picture... ... there's a mouse over that finishes the instructions with this quote:

The piece is now ready for oven drying and final decoration.

so, i'm still confused since i already know that plaster (in general, not this product specifically) does break down under water. i don't think habacrete had a reputation for doing that. that would be important to at least know definitely just to know the limits of the product so it's used correctly.

also, habacretes big claim to fame is that it is "completely inert" upon drying. swinging a ph from 7-8 does not coincide with the definition of inert. also, that swing in ph does indicate something breaking down. if there was nothing breaking down there would be nothing dissolving to change the ph. one thing that could change the outcome of that would be if you tested your ph straight out of the tap. dissolved co2 in your tap water would make carbonic acid and could easily have you testing 24 hours later at a full point higher since the excess co2 would gas off revealing the true ph of the water at normal atmospheric conditions. not sure if you knew or accounted for that in your tests, hmmm.

several factors have me unconvinced that these are the same products. not a bad idea at all, imo... but i am skeptical of widely using this atm.

[froggsong]

You said that you used "reptile sand". Was this calci-sand? Without know whether the sand was inert or not, we can't be sure if THAT is what caused the pH swing or not. Of course, like beck said, it could also have been carbonic acid in the water, depending on whether you let it sit or not.

[fc3schick87]

Originally Posted by beckdg

can i be confident enough to make say a streambed with this as the sole means of holding the water flow? as-in, with no special sealant?

also, this is what i found:
when i was here: Plaster.com - Pottery Plaster - USG® Pottery Plaster is great for all types of ceramic slip casting applications.

there was a link that looked like this: Physical Properties (Click here)

on the last picture... ... there's a mouse over that finishes the instructions with this quote:

so, i'm still confused since i already know that plaster (in general, not this product specifically) does break down under water. i don't think habacrete had a reputation for doing that. that would be important to at least know definitely just to know the limits of the product so it's used correctly.

also, habacretes big claim to fame is that it is "completely inert" upon drying. swinging a ph from 7-8 does not coincide with the definition of inert. also, that swing in ph does indicate something breaking down. if there was nothing breaking down there would be nothing dissolving to change the ph. one thing that could change the outcome of that would be if you tested your ph straight out of the tap. dissolved co2 in your tap water would make carbonic acid and could easily have you testing 24 hours later at a full point higher since the excess co2 would gas off revealing the true ph of the water at normal atmospheric conditions. not sure if you knew or accounted for that in your tests, hmmm.

several factors have me unconvinced that these are the same products. not a bad idea at all, imo... but i am skeptical of widely using this atm.

the oven drying processes is to simply pull the water out of the cured plaster. it is cured chemically and the water is still hanging out inside it so you can put it in the oven to speed up the drying out. they also have a bunch of different types of plasters on that site. so maybe the one you were reading did include fireing, but pottery plaster that i am using does not. it is ment for slip casting of wet clay. it is what they make the molds out of.

if you do research as i have and pull up as many posts and claims as herpinvert is making you can find a post saying there is "almost" no ph change.

"completely inert" is a claim they make but they contradict themselves in several posts i have read.
they can say what ever they want but they have controdicted their ""completely inert"" claim before


they cant even tell us what it is made of. because if they did then every one would realize its not worth 10$ a pound.

i will try out that test you told me. i am by no means a scientist i am just going off gutt fealing and what i know as far as testing water goes.

Originally Posted by froggsong

You said that you used "reptile sand". Was this calci-sand? Without know whether the sand was inert or not, we can't be sure if THAT is what caused the pH swing or not. Of course, like beck said, it could also have been carbonic acid in the water, depending on whether you let it sit or not.

i am not using calcium sand its simple fine grain sand by exo-terra or zoomed. i have both brands and have now used both since they are different colors i have sitting around.

you should question herp invert also about the carbonic acid in the water. i am sure they dont have the facilities to actually test this and they would be glad to answer that question. heck i want you to ask them because i want to hear what they have to say in return

i have the same piece of plaster sitting in the same water, it has had no change.


habacrete doesnt really have this type of extreme testing posted up online, the kind of testing that i am doing. so i cant really cross check my reference unless i get some of the product myself and play with it side by side. but unfortunately the company wont even send me the "Free pound" they have advertised on their site...

oh and lastly. i do have a ph testing kit but i dont have a pph or any other type of way to test the water. i'll be bringing it into a local shop to have them give me readings with one of those expensive devices here today or tomorrow.

if any one has any more information on testing i can do with this please let me know. i am by far not a scientist. im just trying to prove their product is cheap and easy to find locally and not 10$ a pound

i may even prove that habacrete is not "completely inert" and that it can cause some problems in the water, but none that have been reported or non that are really unsafe for reptile use yet.

[fc3schick87]

to add. im not trying to be defensive, if any one wants to try this test themselves get some habacrete and also get some pottery plaster and help me prove its the same stuff (but with aggregate added)

i would love help proving herpinvert wrong because.... they are not treating any one well and everything i have read as feed back to trying to buy habacrete has lead to bad comments and poor customer service on their part.

[froggsong]

I think this is a good process we have going here. I like to see this kind of thing in the forums, it sure beats random questions that have been answered over and over! I like what you're doing too, it's just good to question question question! We might think of something you didn't. Feel free to bounce ideas off of us as well.

I asked about the calci-sand just to be sure, because I do know that it will affect the water's pH. We had a fellow do a BG that he coated in sand... calci-sand to be exact. He was doing a palu and it was a disaster. He had to totally tear it down and start over, if I remember correctly. It was something for everyone to learn from though!