30 gallon terrarium help

[beth2]

We set up a tropical forest type terrarium this summer with roots, live plants and lots of rock work to build a high ledge feature. We covered the soil with that dead moss ground cover stuff from home depot home garden center. We have a pair of green anoles and a pair of fire belly toads. It looks awesome.....but the fire bellies have disappeared. They are alive....but they stay hidden in the rocks. It is disappointing. We rarely see them.

I would like to rebuild/re-design the tank so that there is better viewing. I love the natural look of building up the back of the tank with foam etc....but I dont want to do anything perminent to the tank in case we go back to fish someday. Can I use gravel to build a nice high slope and plant potted plants in the gravel....then grow java moss on top of the gravel? The gravel will be really heavy though...is there something else I can use to build up the back of the tank? I like a nice natural look.....and it has to be easy to maintain.

[Natural Solitude]

Instead of a false bottom, I'm probably just going to use some leca (clay) balls to build up my land area. I'll just use some wood and/or rock to hold it all in place. But I'll have smooth pebbles for the water area.

[Jason]

Your toads are always hidden because thay are always afraid of being eaten, if not by you then the Anoles or what thay represent. Give a small animal a place to hide and so it shall, especially with those on the lower end of the food chain. Recreating the enviroment to expose more of your toads will only lead to undue stress and possable illness related to a lack of security. I would leave it as is and remove the Anoles. Try a feeding ring or a far away section of the tank to feed the FBTs, so you can see them at feeding time at least before thay dart back to safety.

Now as i write this my friend asked me " how the hell is a FBT going to be afraid of an anole", and i told him .The toad may not be afraid of them but think about this. If you are in, lets say the wilds of Africa, and you stumble upon a baby Zebra, of course your not afraid of this tiny majestic beast, i mean come on, its a baby zebra, insted your attention should turn to scan the grassy backdrop and the possability of a pride of lions lying in wait. Its not the Zebra you should fear as the toads may not fear the anole's, but what kind of trouble those pesky lizards will gain the attention of.

Mind you i have no degrees in repitle psychology or even claim to know what a toad thinks. these are just the things that come to mind as i read your post.Ive never owned a FBT or an anole for that matter. I just design my tanks with the most hides i can afford to place, and a minimum of 3. 1 hot zone 1 mid range and one on the cool side, as well as an additional hide in each location for every addition i make to the stock. My sincerest appologys if this seems patronising or rude, i have trouble sometimes comeing across as intended and by no means mean any insult.

[froggsong]

I used to keep one anole in with my FBT. I definitely do see the toad more now that I do not have the anole. I never noticed any stress to my toad, he was always out and about... However, I agree that your toads are likely stressed. The tank I used to keep the anole, FBT, golden tree frog, and squirrel frogs in was bigger than yours, and had plenty of room for the animals to stake territory. The anole had a territorial area off of the ground, up in the tall sturdy plants I had for him, and the branches that ran through the plants. He rarely went onto the ground. The FBT had territory around the pond. The tree frogs all stayed up high just like the anole, except when the squirrel frogs were sharing the hide with the FBT (they liked to sit on his head, lol). I agree that you should move the anoles to a different tank. If you want to keep it mixed, I recommend no smaller than a 4'x18"x2' enclosure (I do not know if a glass tank comes in that size, but go with a larger tank rather than a smaller one, and a high version of a tank over a shorter one). If you separate them, you should go with a shorter tank with more floor space for the FBTs, and a taller tank for the anoles (or keep them in the tank you are using now). I went to a reptile expo in Oct., and there was a vendor that had glass enclosures that I felt would be absolutely perfect for FBTs. They were low, square enclosures with a sliding lid built into the top frame. Don't get me wrong, FBTs like to climb from time to time, but they will usually only do it if they are trying to escape, if you provide enough approprate hiding spots for them, they rarely climb.

Using GS foam on the BG is not permanent. It can always be removed. It is actually not hard at all to scrape off of glass. Anything attached with silicone will be a little harder to remove, but still not overly difficult. Just use a metal scraper and start from the top and go to the bottom, the use a razor blade to scrape off any excess. You can sharpen the metal scraper if necessary with a whet stone (comes in really handy to have a scraper with a razor edge... I sharpened mine until I could shave my leg with it, lol... Then I proceeded to nearly amputate a finger... )

[beth2]

thanks for the replies. I appreciate it. I guess I thought a 30 gallon long tank would be plenty of space especially with all the hiding spots and overhead cover from the branches and plants on the upper half of the tank. The anole rarely goes to the lower half of the tank. Only to catch a cricket.
If I replaced the anoles with tree frogs and a newt would that work out ok with the FBTs? We want to have some kind of water feature when we redesign our terrarium.
I saw a large terrarium with a water feature on webshots once that had firebellies, a newt, hermit crab and a millipede....the hermit crab and millipede confused me....I dont think they can swim can they? And wouldnt the hermit crab eat the live plants?

So if I used the foam to build up the terrain what would I use to cover it so it appears natural?
I would love to collect live mosses and ferns from the woods this spring....has anyone ever done that?
Just bouncing ideas off you all since I have so much to learn.

[froggsong]

Beth, can you post a pic of your current setup? If I can get a better idea of what it looks like, I can help you better, as far as the anoles and FBTs being together is concerned. Please don't take this the wrong way, but the problem with keeping a mixed tank is that you are a beginner and you don't know how to look for the subtle signs that will tell you something is wrong with one of your inhabitants. Mixing is only recommended for people that have enough experience with the animals they are keeping to know if something is wrong with one of them. FBTs are toxic, so mixing them with something that is going to share their water source can be dangerous. Captive bred FBTs are much less toxic than wild caught specimens, but how can you know for sure yours are captive bred? Like I said, I mix FBTs with other species, but to start with it was because of inexperience. At this point I still have my FBTs with my golden tree frog, but I have had them for a long time now and know what to look for. Plus, the golden rarely goes into the water. The species that you currently have is a much better pairing for a beginner. If you MUST have a mixed tank, then keep the ones you have but get a bigger tank.

Generally, a foam BG is covered in silicone and coco fiber/peat moss or grout/thinset/concrete (like habbacrete) to make it look like rocks.

I collect "wild" plants for my vives, it is fine as long as you treat them for parasites and make sure they come from an area where no one uses pesticides. The easiest way to do this is to treat the plants with CO2, then keep them somewhere warm for a week or two and then do it again. Doing the treatment twice ensures that there are no eggs that will hatch into your vivarium. If you setup a larger tank, you can get it set up the way you want with plants from outside, do a CO2 treatment on the whole tank, then wait and do it again. That way you don't have to treat plants individually.

[beth2]

thanks for your help and advice.
I tried to post a picture but if I understand right the picture needs to be online already to be used here?
Basically the tank is longer than high....but all of the top half is full of branches from the roots and full of the plant foliage...so there is a lot of cover for the anole. The lower half of the tank is large roots and rocks making up a back wall....the soil is covered in dried moss.
When we built it we had american toads and local salamanders in mind. We started off with the am. toad and then added the anoles.....then come to find out the toad shouldnt be in the same temp. that the anoles need...so we took the toad out and replaced him with the FBT's. We did seek advice and were told that these two critters can live together without stress since they do not compete for the same area of the tank. The anole rarely comes down from the branches...only to grab a cricket. He never comes to the water. He only drinks when I mist the plants for him. The toads used to be out and about and used to hang out in the wading dish. Then they discovered the moist soil and rock crevices...and thats the last we have seen of them....occationally we see their heads peeking out from in between the rocks.
Half The tank is about 70-74 under the flourescent light strips (2 aquarium/plant light strips) and the other half has a reptile heat lamp over it and it stays about 80+ on that end of the tank.

We did try filling all the cracks and crevices in the rocks with moss and gravel but that didnt work. So I want to redesign the tank so the critters cant "go underground" anymore. Not that I wouldnt provide shelter and privacy for them with roots and plants....

So what should I do? Right now I only have one anole. We bought two and ended up with two males...so we returned one and are waiting for a female.
Should I return the other anole as well and stick to FBT's? If so what other critters can we add? When we rebuild the terrarium we want to build in a water feature.....could we have a newt?
Thanks for the help.

[beth2]

obviously my husband figured out how to post my picture! my anole stays more brown than green.....he is only green when he is laying in the fern up under the lights. I think the tank is too brown and so he stays brown more than green? what do you think? He still displays his throat and struts around like he is king but doesnt turn or stay green.

[froggsong]

Wow, that tank is beautiful. I don't think you should change it at all!

Your anole staying brown all the time and strutting is a sign of stress. He feels like he has to dominate something, which is why he struts and displays his dewlap. I had less plants in my tank when I had the anole, and mine was always green. They are brown when they are stressed, too cold, or sick. They are sometimes referred to as american chameleons, but they don't change color based on the background color like chameleons do.

I think you should keep the anole in that tank and put the toads in something new. Keep it just the way it is, it is beautiful. If you want something that will spend more time on the ground, I hear that alot of people mix long tailed grass lizards with anoles without any problems. Please do alot of research first, though. I haven't done this so I cannot advise. Blue-tailed (or five-lined) skinks occupy some of the same areas as anoles in nature, so you might have success with mixing those lizards. The best amphibians to mix with green anoles are green tree frogs, barking tree frogs, and squirrel tree frogs (my favorite). I think your best bet for mixing would be to get two female anoles and two or three green tree frogs. You need to have two female anoles to one male anole otherwise he will bother the single female too much during breeding season and she will get stressed.

Some of the things I have read say that anoles are brown when they are relaxed. I promise this is not so. They should be a gorgeous, bright green all the time. How long have you had him? Maybe he just isn't settled yet. Here is a pic of my Brutus (may he rest in peace... ) and one of my squirrel frogs (Herman, I think):

He looked like this all the time. He was very healthy, full grown when I caught him, and lived with me for several years. I miss him, he was fun to watch (when he wasn't being lazy, lol). As you can see in the picture, the anole got along with the squirrel frogs just fine. These guys will inhabit the same bushes and trees in the wild, so living in close proximity is ok for them. The anoles are diurnal and the squirrel frogs are nocturnal, so mixing these gives you something to watch all day and all night. Squirrel frogs are hard to find in the pet trade, though, but GTFs are very similar and will also inhabit the same bushes in nature. Barking tree frogs are usually found closer to water, but you can mix them as long as you have a good water dish for them.

Really, I can't stress this enough... I don't think you should change that tank. It is too beautiful. It's great for anoles and some tree frogs. The only thing I would change at all is maybe plant a broad leafed plant close to the front on the left (maybe a dieffenbachia) and add a UV strip light (just switch one for one of the bulbs you already have). Definitely put another clamp lamp with a low wattage bulb in the back left to raise the temps a bit, they could be a little higher. Maybe try a 40watt bulb, cool temp should be 75, warm side 80, basking area should be 85-90. Here is a link to a great care sheet on them.

I hope this helps.

[beth2]

wow! Thanks! We do like the way it looks also.....but we also love the antics of the FBTs.....and my whole family wants a terrarium with a water/land combo....hmmmm....I do have a 20 high I could eventually use for the anoles....hmmm....(its got fish in it right now though)
so you think the anole is too cold then? We have had him for probably 3-4 months. I do notice he isnt eating like he was before. We recently started some construction and moved the terr. to a cooler room....and the tank is cooler than before.
Unfortunately the only way to remove the toads is to tear the tank apart to find them.....so I think either way Im gunna have to do a makeover... I love the design...but if I did it over again I would do as you said and add broad leaf plants and I would want green moss ground cover....that dry stuff is so dull. (but it was perfect for the am. toad...he looked so natural in there)

thanks again for the help and compliments. please keep the input coming. we could use the help!