DAP Dynaflex 230 Mistake?

[beckdg]

oh boy, i had one heck of a post typed up. i'm just not doing it again, sorry. i had explained some properties of silicone, environmental variables, micro-ban (bio-seal) and keepers as well as some things to consider and look out for. it was a long post and it's lost. i doubt i could exactly duplicate it and it's frustrating. i am starting to hate coming on this forum because it's the only one i have this issue with. it's my favorite forum because of our members and topics that vary widely from time to time but it's irritating when you lose 4800 character posts.

[DazzleDiscus]

beck, I sometimes have this problem too... I've learned through my online college classes (there's something ironic lol) that you can't depend on the forums to hold your text. Some do, some don't. to best get around this, hit the "ctrl" + "A" button while you are typing to highlight all your text, then hit "ctrl" + "C" to copy all the highlighted text. In order to paste the text, hit "ctrl" + "V".

Also, pretyping your replies into a processor or wordpad and saving it ever so often helps too... It's rather frustrating when your computer dies while your typing a long reponse/paper... :/

Hope that helps ease your frustrations!

[beckdg]

i appreciate the help but i've been doing this for almost 3,000 posts. i pretty much have a handle on it. i just let this one slip through the fingers so to say.

[WannabeVivMaster]

In your long response...
was using GE Silicone II with BioSeal a bad idea???

[beckdg]

no... there was mention of how it's frowned upon in fish forums and how i've come to believe it's because of a label and maybe inadequate cure times.

you've gotta take into account that micro-ban (bioseal) is useless once it's dried or if it's not exposed directly to whatever it is supposed to kill.

now what happens if you leave say a tote outside long enough for it to fill with rain water? it grows life. add bleach or chlorine tabs and everything is bleached to death. give it a week or two and all life has begun resuming as if nothing ever happened. such is life... it finds a way.

now take into account the properties of silicone. it stinks prior to fully cured. well our noses detect gases... so there's gasses. once you open your enclosure to take a whiff the gas is now less concentrated. we are also less sensitive than many animals we'd be housing. those are 2 good reasons to give extra cure time. now lets think about how silicone dries. it skins like paint. in other words it dries from the outside in. so we cannot judge by touch. now under the conditions that the surface may be fully cured, water and animals are added and one happens to brush up against it puncturing, lifting or otherwise exposing the uncured underside this would be a double edge sword with it containing bioseal. as if uncured silicone isn't already toxic enough.

now take into account how to properly set up a viv/palu. first we construct it. then we let it cure. then we test it. in most cases testing resumes even after plants are added. we can't get the full scope of things just from one day. we go through mold phases, testing and dialing in our proper settings, keeping an eye on our water features, misting, etc., etc.. during this time it's a good idea to start a fishless cycle.

during a fishless cycle we add pure ammonia and test it daily to watch it turn into nitrites and then nitrates. when ammonia and nitrite reads at 0ppm consistently each morning after then the cycle is finished. in most cases people even do frequent water changes during this time. also since this process is done usually with household cleaning products and tends to build nitrate levels up to insurmountable quantities we do a large water change directly prior to adding our inhabitants.

i mention the fishless cycle because this would be a great indicator. what is turning ammonia into nitrites and then into nitrates are the beneficial bacteria. bacteria which could not survive if the bioseal is still doing it's job. therefore it would be suspect if 3 or so weeks go by and there's no change at all in your test results other than added ammonia.

at any rate caulk of any kind can fail. it takes a trained eye or someone with experience to see the signs sometimes and other times it's obvious. if you know what to look for you can usually tell right out of the tube (as long as you're using the right product). manufacturers defects and expired products do happen.

then there is the nature of the beast. we are on a forum here and many times it's hard to think of it as dealing with people. we are though, and they are people who in many cases would think that animals in general mean a whole lot to the other members. it is a whole lot easier to blame your shortcomings on a product than seek out the truth or take responsibility for ones own actions. knowing the nature of the beast i find it hard not to ask the question "were these people being completely honest, not only to themselves but to the rest of us?".

there was more i think but i can't seem to put it together at this time. i did mention that i believe dap is spelled wrong. i think it was like a bad birthday cake... it was supposed to be spelled c r a p but there was a mixup and they ran with it.

[WannabeVivMaster]

That was a lengthy response... thanks. About 4 hours ago, I smeared GE Silicone II on the glass. Here it is, 4 hours later, and it's still wet to the touch. I'm getting pretty irritated by set backs... I"m in no hurry to get animals in the vivarium but enough is enough. I am learning tho...
I'm sure I will have to learn how to get all the bad silicone off the glass and start over. I read I should test the silicone before putting it on the glass. I thought "What are the chances?". I should have known better.
How often does bad silicone occure? Must be more often than one thinks... Hopefully people will read this thread as it contains some good mistakes for newbies.

[beckdg]

are you within curing temperature range?
how did you remove the old caulk?
is the glass clean and dry enough?
bad silicone is not extremely common but it does happen. it happens when the mix is not right or the tube is expired mostly. it is winter though so some tubes could expand during the cold of shipping leaving air gaps and partially curing. that would typically leave chunks or a couple inches of cured silicone in the tube. it would feel harder than the rest and not just the inch or so where the push cap is.

sorry about your luck and the dumb questions... just trying to cover the bases for ya.

edit: you might just want to give it time. usually it's suggested anywhere from 12 to 24 hours for a quick cure and 48 to 72 hours for a full cure. i find those times to be a little to a lot optimistic at times. other times they're dead on but i wouldn't count on that for housing life forms in general.

did you use a card to thin the silicone on the glass?

[froggsong]

Lightly misting silicone can also help speed the cure times. If your house is very dry, then it will need the extra humidity to begin curing properly (this is one reason why coco fiber will not stick to silicone if it is not completely dry, if it's wet at all, the water makes the silicone skin too fast for it to stick effectively). I generally very lightly mist both silicone and GS just to be sure the humidity isn't too low. You'd think living in the wettest area of the country that the humidity would be higher... It's usually 20% or less in my house.

By the way, I must stress the word "lightly" once more. Get a misting bottle that makes such a fine mist that the droplets will float in order to get proper coverage and not too much water just sitting on the silicone.

[WannabeVivMaster]

I took a closer look at the expiration date... It says use by Feb. 2009. IT WAS EXPIRED!!! I let it sit on the glass for 24 hours... still as wet as it was when I put it on. I took the tubes back. They gave me my money back. They also gave me McKanica Silicone Caulk Remover. I scraped off the worthless silicone and used the caulk remover. The caulk remover has been cleaned away with plenty of water. The glass feels dry and appears not to have any residue. I don't smell any "toxic" smells. I think I'm good to go. I"ve got a couple new tubes of silicone within the use by date.
This has been the most trouble I"ve ever had with any animal housing!
Thanks for all of the helpful posts...

[beckdg]

have you guys noticed the tags at the bottom of the page? (background, dap, dumbass, mistake, silicone) idk, i thought that was funny and i'd share.

i can't recall what color you're using but taking some pics with a decent camera will often tell the truth whether your glass is completely clean. i like to use alcohol for final cleaning prior to attempting to adhere anything to it. if it's not wiped well and dry after it sometimes will keep things from sticking though so absolutely dry would be a must.

sorry about your luck so far. hopefully this will be the last of your road blocks.