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  #1  
Old 04-27-2010, 12:17 AM
Chasing Crickets
 
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Default water feature fertilizers, plants, substrate?

I am currently in the process of building my mossy frog enclosure and need a few suggestions. My land section is all set apart from a few additional plants i may add, we'll see. But I need to find out a few things about the water section. I am looking at about 7-10 inches of water in a 29 gallon.

From what I have been seeing most people use gravel as a substrate. Do I need anything else for my plants to thrive?

Also is anyone using fertilizer to keep their plants alive or they seem to fare well without much help? Are any liquid fertilizers out there frog safe? Or do I just not need one. I am gonna use ReptSafe to treat the water like I have been doing for them so far.

Also, any algae problems, and is so should I get a mystery snail to take care of waste?

I never did anything like this. Last time I did a tank, it was for fish and well my wood dyed my water brown and I had a snail infestation. Plants were ok for a while. I didn't use anything but water and light.
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Old 04-27-2010, 06:11 AM
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Gravel is an inert substrate, so it won't serve as anything more than an anchor for your plants. There are substrates that can provide nutrients, or you could use potting soil capped with an inert material like sand to hold it down. There are always nutrient tabs as well, homemade and otherwise.

If your water is densely planted you probably won't have any algae issues- it's when the plants are not able to keep up with the nutrient loads that these things appear.

I use fertilizer, but I don't keep amphibians- still, I dose at levels safe for fish. I don't know much about these frogs- do they spend a fair amount of time in the water? If so, their waste may provide some nutrients to the plants.

I'd recommend having a look at plantedtank.net and aquaticplantcentral.com if you haven't already- they've got some good information there on how to keep aquatic plants. Also, I'm sure Beck will be here any minute...
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:24 AM
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assuming we're only talking your water section...

substrate first and foremost is a decoration and an anchor. if you'd like it to be more that's an option but keep in mind the only substrates i know of that can be used as fertilizers (in a complete sense of the term) are aqua design amano's aqua soil or organic potting soil topped with sand or small gravel to keep it in place. if you use the potting soil it would have to e completely covered, amended with something to precipitate calcium (like crushed coral or sea shells) and the plants should pretty much stay put as long as possible to keep the soil from getting into the water. the soil will also seach tannins pretty bad at first. both of these options run the risk of having to be cycled so they don't release too much ammonia with your little guys in there too. on the other hand root tabs can be added monthly to the base of any rooted plants instead of using special substrates and it works well.

ferts are unfortunately possibly a necessity. the plants you pick, your lighting, soil and the nutrients in your water will play a big role there. also, if your water section will be very small there's less leeway since it can only hold so much and can be stripped of nutrients much faster. some people have successful planted tanks with inert substrates and just tap water. i call them lucky. you may be able to get away with it also, idk. if you'll be misting with r/o water and not adding tap water... just siphoning i'd say it's probably best to run the gambit on ferts, amend gh and so on.

i think aaron might be using msu ferts. that might be an option. also there's plenty of bottled name brand ferts that can be found at any decent local fish store. depending what your water's missing one or more of these products may be adequate for you. the last option is dry ferts... it's the one i use.

regardless what you use, if you use anything you'll be a chemist on a small scale in no time flat so don't be afraid of chemical names (believe me, it's a common problem). all plants need n (nitrogen), p (phophorous), k (potassium) and micros (things added in smaller amounts that can be grouped together). what i use...
n - kno3 - potassium nitrate
p - kh2po4 - potassium phosphate
k - k2so4 - potassium sulfate
micros - plantex csm+b

in addition, for my root tabs...
mgso4 - magnesium sulfate - epsom salts
fe - chelated iron
red mexican or red indian clay (it forms the tabs, hold the nutrients and the red in it is actually iron so it helps there too)

one thing to keep in mind is once you have all the chemicals they're only powders. so it's basically add this much of this powder and that much of that... no need to fiddle with remembering the compounds and such since they're printed on the package for reference. it's definitely not as hard as it sounds (i know it sounds like chinese now) and imho it's a lot easier than guessing with liquid ferts. dry ferts are a lot cheaper too since you're not paying for mostly water and to have it shipped/distributed here, there and everywhere across the country.

i don't know about reptsafe, personally. i do know that chemical reactions of certain sorts (especially those that may bind your ferts or minerals) aren't good for a naturalized environment such as a planted water section. i also don't know what the price works out to be in comparison on the reptisafe either. i don't think it would be an issue, but in the aquarium community the most regarded water treatment is prime. if you have any issues you can't pin down once you go planted in your water section you might want to consider only using proven methods... basically if you're using prime your dechlorinator will not be a question you need answered... and i can't personally answer it. once again, i don't THINK it's necessary but i don't know for sure.

adding critter to take care of algae or waste can backfire. bridgessi snails can add a good amount of waste themselves for a snail. if you experience algae issues the best treatments are usually clean your system (like a fish tank, not by washing it), get good water flow, lower your light intensity, give the light more distance to travel to the water by raising the fixture up, provide shade for any lower light plants the algae may be attacking or add ferts. the idea is to keep the plants happy and healthy. when the plants aren't healthy the algae will be. decaying plant matter is certainly a trigger for algae... so focus on the plants and the algae will be minimal.

if you don't like the brown water from the wood (there's nothing technically wrong with it) boil your wood and switch it with clean water often until your wood is no longer staining the hot water bad.

it is always better to dip or check your plants for any unwanted visitors/hitchikers prior to putting them in your tank. if you still wind up with a snail infestation you can try to keep less food from getting in there or trap them by putting food in there like squash or lettuce and removing it once it's covered in snails.

the quote at the beginning of this... how it's done... favorite links thread ... goes into more detail with links to almost anything you'll ever need to know about growing aquatic plants. for more in depth info on that maybe aaron will link you to the thread i quoted that from if you ask nicely.

hopefully that's not too much to take in all at once.
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  #4  
Old 04-27-2010, 12:43 PM
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oh, she's done it now! lol... Beck is excellent to go to for this type of advice, he's helped me out a ton with my tank!
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:36 PM
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Thanks a lot you guys!!!! Never too much information if you ask me!!!! Chemistry is not my strength, but its all good.

Mossy frogs are semi-aquatic and love to stay in the water all day keeping only their nose above water. They do poop in the water a lot, so I may get a little fertilizer out of them, lol. I love them. Especially how they call. And they are full grown now and deserve their own awesome tank.

I think I will stick with gravel for my substrate but only to anchor my plants and see if I can get some rot tabs, those sound good. I am gonna look into more information and hopefully in about a week or so I will add my paludarium to the gallery here. Keep your fingers crossed that all goes well.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:15 AM
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Ok. I have been looking stuff up all after work and the sites you gave me Beck are great ! I decided to go with Eco Complete substrate with sand mixed in and in some parts just sand alone. Plants I will go to the local Aquarium Adventure, write what I like and look it up. I figure that's the best way. I'm still unsure about fertilizing. I don't want to harm my frogs. But I don't want my nice planted tank to die after 5 weeks or less. Any idea which fertilizers are frog safe?

also I have the 29 gallon tank and my water feature is only 1/3 of the way up, do i need to figure out something like CO2 injection/additive?
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:39 AM
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safe ferts are listed above. if you follow most accepted fert schedules (pps pro, ei, modified pmdd, el natural, etc.) you'll be well within acceptable levels imo.

whether you need co2 will depend on your lighting.

there's more plants that'll do good in low light than you'd think. many plants (especially stem plants) can be grown floating till they're tall enough to reach the surface to utilize atmospheric co2. this will eliminate the need for co2. the other way to do it is to just have floaters that provide shade where you may need it. anything that can reach out of the water will definitely have access to more co2 than you can put in the water anyway.

decaying plant matter, a natural substrate, excel, florin axis and gluteraldehyde have all been discussed and used as substitutes for co2. plant matter and substrate are typically discussed for low light or natural purposes where shading plants would be utilized heavily or very low light would be supplemented with ambient (not direct) sun light. i have heard of florin axis possibly working well, but no hard data seems to support it as of yet. excel and gluteraldehyde seem to be able to supplement a demanding tank up to higher light setups that would do better off with pressurized... or do well as algaecides or as a supplement to diy co2.
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  #8  
Old 04-30-2010, 08:07 AM
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That's true. most of my plants are going to be touching the surface since the water is quite low. I have to make sure that that's ok first too. thanks for those links to those sites, that will help a great deal with my plant selection.

I don't think supplying CO2 will be necessary if I can use atmospheric CO2. How about using Eco Complete. Think its OK? It looks good to me.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:16 AM
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E C is a good substrate. should provide good cec (cation exchange rate), good grain size, enough weight to keep your plants in place and a major rinse should not be necessary. root tabs will still most likely be a necessity for any rooted plants, so keep that in mind. the root tab recipe posted by riiz on aquariacentral is the one i swear by. you might want to look that up and make a batch. the cost is minimal for what you get and the performance far outweighs store bought tabs imho. to me, it would be worth the effort even if they cost more.
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  #10  
Old 05-01-2010, 10:37 PM
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ok i will look into it. So far I have my land section almost complete. I want to put one more bromeliad in there and then I am set. My water section is all done except for the plants. I have it filled with water and all set. I read an article that said I should fill it with water and just let it sit for a couple weeks, for the water, and substrate and wood to settle in, and then test my water for different chemical balances/absences. If all is well I can plant and let it settle about a month and then start fertilizing. Does that sound good to you? It seems like it makes sense
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