GRIMM's Vivarium Build #2

[Grimm]

I honestly dont see myself painting any part of my tank after thinking about it today, just semms like there are too many things that could go wrong...Expecially finding safe paints and coatings.

I like they way that concrete looks once it is finished. Especially since I can experiment with how thick or viscous to mix it. Id like to make the lower section quite grainy and rough so the moss can climb it as you stated.

I'm liking the Titebond method you suggested however...So do you just mix the glue with the dried up co-co, sand and rocks then? I am planning to stick Broms into the foam once it is completed, so I dont want the coating on the foam to crack from bending. Will the Titebond flex a bit or does it become hard and brittle?

Also, what is a safe and easy to find concrete sealer that is safe to use submerged?

[froggsong]

The titebond should dry as hard as concrete. I've heard that it turns out the same as the concrete binder, just waterproof. When you knock on the surfaces covered with the concrete binder method, it sounds like knocking on a rock, lol... Also, use sand sparingly, a little goes a long way to make it very rough. You can mix in whatever you want, depending on how you want the finished product to look. The glue (and the concrete binder) just glues it all together to make a solid coating. I'm not sure how it would do with larger rocks/pebbles, so you might want to experiment with that first.

If you decide to try the concrete binder method, be sure to throughly dry it, then wet it really well to leach out the extra binder. I think this is one reason mine fell apart the time I used it, I skipped/forgot that step. I'm actually using the thing I covered with it again, and none of it has fallen off and there is nothing leaching into the water, even though it IS constantly wet. So, my initial experience with it may not be the best to go by to say how well it will hold up when always wet.

As far as the concrete sealer, is it really necessary? I've not used the concrete method yet (still have a huge bag of it waiting to be used)... What exactly is the purpose of sealing it? I know you still have to leach the concrete to lower the pH, but I don't see it being wet being a problem, from what I've read (someone please correct me if I am mistaken). After all, concrete can only cure when wet, so I would think that keeping it underwater would only strengthen it.

[froggsong]

Oh, I forgot to mention, the eggcrate is about the same price you paid for the coroplast. About $11 for a 2'x4' sheet. I think that next time I need to make a topper with GS, I'll grab some coroplast instead of the eggcrate and give it a try. I like how strong and flexible it is, plus it's super light.

[Grimm]

I'm surprised the coroplast is roughly the same price as the egg crate...I figured it would be much cheaper. IMO if you can get egg crate for the same price I'd get it instead. Then you dont have to fiddle around with punching holes in it yourself.

And Im not sure why I though concrete had to be sealed. I must have herd it somewhere. Its great if it doesnt have to be sealed tho, just one less thing to worry about.

You say to let it dry out, then wet it very well...I'm assuming you only wet it once its completely cured rite?? Ive herd that concrete will raise ph so its a good idea to rinse it 8-10 times before setting up the viv with plants/animals. I think I'll just fill my tank up and let the pump run for a few hours, drain, and repeat a bunch of times.

Froggy have you ever tried the Titebond method yourself? If it gets hard as a rock it doesnt seem like I would be able to stick Broms into the foam. What makes the Titebond method look more realistic then the silicone method if I use the same co-co and moss on both?

[beckdg]

crete in general is a very resilient product. it does have it's flaws though. sealing can help with a lot of things although it's not absolutely necessary in almost all cases. it can help keep the crete from over drying and cracking, getting too wet and falling apart, wearing down from everyday use and most importantly... crete is very porous and very few crete products will actually HOLD water. if you were to use it for a reservoir i'd definitely seal it. other than making it hold water though there's virtually no reason sealing is absolutely necessary as there are ways to work around its other downfalls fairly easily. the ph thing for example can usually be remedied with a few good rinses and/or a quick vinegar bath/spritz to counter act the lye.

the best way to cure concrete is moist. if it dries during the initial curing phase it cracks just about every time, especially when poured thin like we'd do for our vivs. for this it's best to keep a spray bottle handy to give it a quick mist down before it becomes completely dry.

the tightbond does not create a thick gooey looking mess under your b/g cover layer that you can see when you look into the viv. not only that as things fall off over time you won't be exposing a faded, grayed out, murky layer of silicone that's left behind if you use the tightbond. also your cover material can be mixed into the tightbond as well as pressed into it so when the outer layer rots or falls off you're left with the same stuff... just slightly shinier.

my crete b/g for my crabitat is not sealed nor will the one for the beardie be... unless by the off chance i decide to add a water feature for him. at that point only the water feature will be sealed.

if you do do crete for a b/g and seal it, then add broms at a later date it might be better to just mount them or drill or cut the crete with a grinder instead of trying to poke it. i'd be more weary of cracking a thin sheet of crete than cutting into my sealer. using one of these methods should keep you from having to worry about that.

one thing i notice about crete work in vivs is most people try to add details in their b/g before adding the crete. this will not work out well. best bet is to get overall shapes and add your fine details to your crete itself with a blade or something. you'll get your details that way and not waste your time doing something intricate that'll just wash out as you cover it over.

[Grimm]

Thanks for all the helpful tips Beck! I may do the Titebond method on the upper portion. One thing I noticed with silicone is that it skins over way to quickly and wont grab onto the co-co.

Since I'll be using the concrete on the lower half almost all of it will be constantly moist, if not submerged. I dont actually need the concrete to HOLD any water since I dont have a land/water barrier. Is it a problem to have unsealed concrete in a submerged section that doesnt require to be water tight? Will the water destroy the concrete if it seeps into the foam? If it does need to be coated what do you suggest Beck? Id like something that doesnt give a glossy look to the finished concrete tho. If it ends up looking good I may just do the entire tank in concrete. Also is the concrete able to come off the glass easily or should I be concerned with masking it up?

I made a little progress on the tank last night. I tried sculpting a few details, aswell as a path for the water to run and trickel down to certain areas. I started cutting back the excess silicone also, then I did a wet test run. Turns out that the tank has a small hole in the front left corner. I patched it up on the inside and out this morning so it should be fine (it was a veeeeerry small hole)

I'll post a few pictures of the progress tonight once I get them uploaded and edited with text and arrows....Sorry I would post them now but I forgot my camera cord at home

[beckdg]

if you're already using tightbond i don't see why you can't just mix some of that in when you mix up your last couple coats of crete to seal it from the inside. anything you put on the outside will cause a sheen unless you sprinkle sand on it while it's still wet... even a little then. there's a bunch of things you could use to seal it and i'm sure you'll get suggestions, i'm just sure i'll miss a whole lot if i listed things right now. i haven't been clear minded in over a week.

concrete can be wiped off of glass quite easily while you're working with it but if you're concerned, by all means tape it up. any small clumps that dry on the glass can leave a bothersome stain for a bit that just irks me to no end... not that it won't eventually come off.

with the silicone... use it in smaller sections, pump it in there quickly and smooth it with your glove hand quickly and press the coco in using large handfuls and decent pressure with your clean hand.

if you patched over existing silicone with silicone it's likely you'll leak again.

there's some hints and tricks as well as how to's on crete in this link... how it's done... favorite links thread

sorry, it's still majorly cluttered. i think you'll be looking for the top of my second post though.

[Grimm]

No that all makes sense...And mixing the titebond in with the concrete sounds like a great idea too....Itll save me from having to buy 1 more item. Simpler the better!

As far as the tank leak, Im pretty sure it wont leak again...The only way I actually found the leak was from a single drop that formed over a 45 minute period. I found the hole only by blowing into it and watching the bubbles. I layed a thick layer of silicone on both sides of the glass, and pressed it in tight. I'll check it out again once I start rinsing off the concrete.

[froggsong]

Froggy have you ever tried the Titebond method yourself? If it gets hard as a rock it doesnt seem like I would be able to stick Broms into the foam. What makes the Titebond method look more realistic then the silicone method if I use the same co-co and moss on both?

the tightbond does not create a thick gooey looking mess under your b/g cover layer that you can see when you look into the viv. not only that as things fall off over time you won't be exposing a faded, grayed out, murky layer of silicone that's left behind if you use the tightbond. also your cover material can be mixed into the tightbond as well as pressed into it so when the outer layer rots or falls off you're left with the same stuff... just slightly shinier.

First, I don't think you guys are understanding me on how the concrete binder or titebond is used. You don't use it like silicone, you mix it together with whatever you want to use for the BG (sand, peat, coco fiber, etc) and then spread it on similar to concrete, except you do it in a single layer.

I'm surprised the coroplast is roughly the same price as the egg crate...I figured it would be much cheaper. IMO if you can get egg crate for the same price I'd get it instead. Then you dont have to fiddle around with punching holes in it yourself.

I was taking about using it for the outside of the topper, no holes would be necessary, it would only form the rigid base for the foam.

You say to let it dry out, then wet it very well...I'm assuming you only wet it once its completely cured rite?? Ive herd that concrete will raise ph so its a good idea to rinse it 8-10 times before setting up the viv with plants/animals. I think I'll just fill my tank up and let the pump run for a few hours, drain, and repeat a bunch of times.

I was referring to the concrete binder method, not concrete. The purpose of letting it dry and then wetting it when you use the binder method is to leach out the excess binder. This makes the structure stronger.

And again:

Froggy have you ever tried the Titebond method yourself? If it gets hard as a rock it doesnt seem like I would be able to stick Broms into the foam. What makes the Titebond method look more realistic then the silicone method if I use the same co-co and moss on both?

No, I haven't tried the titebond. I have, however, tried the binder. It works the same way, it's just that the titebond is waterproof, allowing you to use it on water features.

If you want to put broms in the foam, you'll have to use staples or glue, or put them in before you cover the BG in the mixture.

It looks MUCH more realistic. It doesn't look like you glued stuff onto a piece of foam. It looks much more realistic. With the silicone method, so many things can go wrong, and even when nothing does, it still erodes, especially if exposed to running water or constant misting (or even occasional high pressure misting). The coco fiber/moss/whatever is going to wash off, and then you'll just see the icky silicone underneath. It's time consuming, you have to work fast, and it takes a LONG time to cure. The binder/titebond method can even replace the concrete method, since you can use it with sand. Using sand will make it turn out just like concrete, without having to leach it or keep it moist so it will properly cure. With the binder/titebond method, if it cracks while drying, you can just patch it, I'm not sure how well that works with concrete. I'll see if I can get a picture of the small piece I am using with the binder mix on it. It just looks sooooooooo much more natural than silicone.

Now, just to clarify (since I think you guys got it wrong to begin with), with the bonder/titebond method, you MIX the binder/titebond with peat/coco fiber/sand/soil/etc and if too thick, a little water, then you spread it on your foam (it needs to have the skin removed first if you're using GS) and shape it like you would with concrete. It sticks in one layer because the binder and titebond are both essentially glues (and the titebond IS a glue, lol). It's much fast than the other methods; you can dry it overnight with a fan, then wet it throughly to leach the excess binder (shouldn't be necessary with the titebond, another reason I like it), then dry it again. After that, it's ready for plants and inhabitants. Two days max, from start to finish (not counting foam curing times, of course).

You can also mix in ground moss/moss spores and they should eventually grow as long as you keep the humidity high and mist the BG from time to time. If you're using a fogger, that's even better.

Please let me know if I need to clarify that better. I really think you guys had it all wrong to begin with. You don't put the glue on the foam and then press anything into it, you mix it in a bucket.

Google flevopol to see examples and to get a recipe (I do have one somewhere, I'll just have to locate it). Beck, the guy in your favorite link used this method... I didn't think you'd misunderstand what I was talking about...

[Grimm]

No I understand that you have to mix it all together and slap it all on in one layer.

I think im just confused with when u say binder...Are you using it in as a NOUN or as a different type of PRODUCT? I thought a binder was just anything that holds something together, so a binder would be both the glue and concrete depending on what is used.

Im not getting the difference between "the concrete binder method, and just concrete"....Is the difference that the concrete binder method just has extras added in the mix?