GRIMM's Vivarium Build #2

[froggsong]

No I understand that you have to mix it all together and slap it all on in one layer.

I think im just confused with when u say binder...Are you using it in as a NOUN or as a different type of PRODUCT? I thought a binder was just anything that holds something together, so a binder would be both the glue and concrete depending on what is used.

Im not getting the difference between "the concrete binder method, and just concrete"....Is the difference that the concrete binder method just has extras added in the mix?

EDIT: This actually annoying me now. Just define and give an example of a name brand product used for each, in as little words possible. It doesnt really matter since I already know what I am going to be doing for my background...Im just frustrated

Concrete Binder -
Concrete -
Binder -

The product is described as a concrete BONDER or BINDER. There are many. The one I used is from ACE. I don't remember the name of it exactly, and I don't feel like digging through my shed to find it. It's like "concrete primer and bonding additive", or something like that. Google "flevopol" to get examples, like I said in my last post. In fact, here is a site that uses the ACE product: 40 Gallon Hex & 0.0.4 D Tinctorius frogs

I'm sorry you are frustrated. I'm also very frustrated. I specifically called it the concrete binder method, which is what it's called when I've read about it elsewhere, when it's not being called the flevopol method. I've read back over what I said, and I don't see where your confusion is coming from.

...You could try painting it, covering it in concrete, or even using the concrete binder method...

I think it's obvious from the above quote that all three are different things...

You seem to know what's best, so do what you think is best. I was only trying to bring your attention to a method that I find to be easier, faster, and better looking. You certainly didn't have to be rude. Since it "doesn't really matter" you're lucky I'm answering you at all.

[Epiphile]

So which method do you think you'll be going with, then, Grimm? Looking forward to seeing this one come along.

[Grimm]

No im not mad at you at all...I'm just annoyed at myself since I dont know what Binder is...Ive never seen it used before, or even know what the finished product looks like alone. Does it come out grey like concrete or is it just a clear liquid that bonds stuff together (I'll answer these questions when I check that link out and search the product)

What I am going to do is just cover it in a 1-2 layers of thinly mixed concrete, followed by a layer of concrete mixed with Titebond to make sure is water tight, and a final layer of a thickly mixed batch of concrete to give it a gritty rough look (perhaps adding a little sand/co-co into the mix)

[Grimm]

Hey Froggy sorry for being short...I was just confused

The link you posted is GREAT...That is essentially what I want the finished coating to look like, however I was under the impression mixing concrete with co-co/sand would give that effect. I'll be doing my lower section using the binder/co-co/peat method. I didnt realize it is an aditive to concrete to make it adhere better.

And the upper section a will use the Titebond/co-co/peat so it flows and matches the lower section nicely.

WOOOO all figured out! Thanks for Froggy of course

[froggsong]

In that case, I apologize for my reaction. I couldn't figure out how I was being confusing. I thought beck knew what I was talking about, but then wasn't sure after the bit of his post that I quoted and bolded.

The binder is basically a glue that helps strengthen the concrete. It's an acrylic copoloymer. (did I spell that right?) It's milky white and when not added to concrete, it holds peat, coco fiber, sand, etc together to form a covering that is hard as a rock. If you use coco fiber or peat, it's brown, if you use sand, it's whatever color the sand was that you used. You can use it with sand alone to achieve a look like concrete without the cure time and soaking of concrete. You can add it to concrete to strengthen it, like you are planning to do with the titebond.

What you said here (the bold part):

I'm liking the Titebond method you suggested however...So do you just mix the glue with the dried up co-co, sand and rocks then? I am planning to stick Broms into the foam once it is completed, so I dont want the coating on the foam to crack from bending. Will the Titebond flex a bit or does it become hard and brittle?

is exactly how you use the binder. I'm not sure it would work with anything pebble sized or larger, but when using peat, coco fiber, or sand, you do it exactly like that. You can mix pretty much anything with a small grain size into it to get whatever look you want. It just acts as the glue that holds it all together.

If you use the titebond, you'll get the same results, just waterproof.

[Epiphile]

The stuff I used came out of the bottle milky, but didn't really seem to affect the colour of the grout I used too much- then again, I used concrete tint to colour the grout, so that may have had something to do with it.

I can't speak yet for how it affects the build, as I haven't actually set the tank up yet, and haven't done any other builds with grout to compare.

Edit- well, I guess I was a bit slow writing that up- Froggsong's got it covered above, looks like.

[Grimm]

Ok thats great then!!! I thought it gave it a grey colour the same as concrete.

Instead I will just add more co-co/peat to the upper section, and more sand to the lower section.

[froggsong]

So you want the lower portion to be brown too, like in that link, right? If I were you, I'd just do the entire thing with the titebond if that's the case, since it's waterproof and the binder isn't waterproof. If you use the binder below the waterline, it might fall apart when exposed to the water. When I did it, my piece was exposed to water, and it fell apart and the binder leached into my water, causing it to foam up. Now, I DID forget to wet it again to let the excess binder leach out, so that might be why mine fell apart. I'm using the piece again and I haven't noticed any of it disentigrating and there's no foaming in the water, so it might hold up just fine if you don't forget that step. However, if you are going to use the titebond on the top, you might as well use it as the glue for the entire piece. If you want it to look a little different on the bottom portion, you can just change the mixture you use (more sand or something).

Just to make sure, when I say binder, I just mean the white acrylic copolymer, not concrete in any way.

[froggsong]

In that link, I think it's mostly his lighting, but if you don't leach the binder out of the BG, it WILL take on a slightly greyish/blueish hue. As long as you leach it properly, that goes away.

Again though, if you can afford the titebond, I'd use that instead, since it's waterproof. I'm not the only one who has had something done with the binder fall apart when exposed to water constantly.

[Grimm]

Originally Posted by froggsong

So you want the lower portion to be brown too, like in that link, right? If I were you, I'd just do the entire thing with the titebond if that's the case, since it's waterproof and the binder isn't waterproof. If you use the binder below the waterline, it might fall apart when exposed to the water. When I did it, my piece was exposed to water, and it fell apart and the binder leached into my water, causing it to foam up. Now, I DID forget to wet it again to let the excess binder leach out, so that might be why mine fell apart. I'm using the piece again and I haven't noticed any of it disentigrating and there's no foaming in the water, so it might hold up just fine if you don't forget that step. However, if you are going to use the titebond on the top, you might as well use it as the glue for the entire piece. If you want it to look a little different on the bottom portion, you can just change the mixture you use (more sand or something).

Just to make sure, when I say binder, I just mean the white acrylic copolymer, not concrete in any way.

Lol so many choices eh!

Yeah if it isnt waterproof then there really isnt any reason not to use Titebond for everything...Especially if the binder has the potential to fall apart if not cured correctly. If I ever make a tank for African Fat Tails I'll try out the binder method for sure. For now I'll just mix up several different batches with different quantities of coco/peat/and sand with Titebond. This way I can give cracks and indents a darker finish, and any convex curves a more polished and clean look (as if rocks washed away by water)