Want to start vivarium but have questions

[chris lay]

Ok so i have been an avid snake collector for a long time and have wanted to start a vivarium for quite a while and am just now getting started on my tank. One main question i have is can i mix different types of anpibion/reptiles to one enclosure? It will be a large inclosure, and will have more than enough room for more than one species and would love to have the veriety. Any info would be helpful!!

Thanx

Chris

[beckdg]

lots of research and a good time with each species individually is really suggested if you do. many people are completely against it as there are MANY things that can go wrong.

[chris lay]

Yeah i dont plan on going to crazy with it yet becuase im still new at this. I realy enjoy PDF's and Geccos, so that is what i was thining of starting with. i would keep them seperate from my snakes part of the tank with a plexiglass partition, but was more worried about the compatibility of the frogs and geccos.

[beckdg]

i would say most geckos like it dry while pdf's like it wet so you're off to a bad start. you will have to find a good variety and cross reference their needs first. you will have to consider size, diet, habitat (temp, hides, gradient...)... the list goes on and everything has to be taken into account. snakes obviously you know are an absolute nono and even their presence through a glass window might cause enough stress to make the whole thing not work.

[Alex95]

You should NOT mix different type of species. Here are some reason why. *Note I did NOT write this some one else from a different website did*

*Sometimes, when people set up a terrarium they wish to create a "mini ecosystem" and add a mix of species that will cohabitate in the terrarium. While in theory this sounds like a good idea, it is a situation fraught with difficulties and can only be achieved with a great deal of research and work. For the average keeper of reptiles and amphibians, it is not something I would recommend. Here is why:
Different species have different requirements, even if the differences seem quite minor especially for species from similar climates. However, in the wild each species occupies a unique niche even within the same general climate, where temperature, light, humidity vary depending on the specific habitat of each species (e.g. tree vs ground dwelling, terrestrial vs. aquatic). In an unnatural situation (the terrarium), it is hard to provide an environment that closely duplicates the natural environment needed to keep single species healthy and stress-free. Providing natural conditions for multiple species is extrememly complicated.
Terrariums for mixed species generally need to be much larger than those for a single species, and are more difficult to maintain. Extra room is needed to provide the proper environmental conditions and furnishings for each species, as well as allowing each species their own space to hunt and interact somewhat naturally. Crowding different species together in a small tank can be a recipe for disaster.
Carnivorous critters are usually not picky eaters, and will try to eat smaller cagemates of any species. This applies to animals (lizards, frogs, salamanders) that are largely insectivorous; most of these will not hesitate to hunt other small critters given the opportunity especially if confined in a tank with them. Also consider the stress you place on an animal, confining it in close quarters with a potential predator.
Toxicity may be an issue with some frogs, salamanders, and newts. Many secrete mild skin toxins. These toxins may not be dangerous to humans, but they can accumulate in a tank and cause problems if absorbed through the skin of other tank inhabitants or if a cagemate tries to eat a toxic amphibian.
Animals may become stressed by behaviors and displays that are unexpected and that they do no know how to intrpret. Between species that do not normally coexist, normal behaviors and benign displays may be misinterpreted, and this may lead to fighting or stress.
Animals from different areas or habitats have differing immunities to parasites and infectious diseases. Therefore, one species may harbour a bug that it can carry with no ill-effects. However, if that bug (be it a parasite, virus or bacteria) is introduced to a species with no natural immunity, the result can be devastating.
I know there are people out there that have mixed tanks that seem to do just fine, but my recommendation is to stick to one species per tank. The results of mixing species of reptile and amphibian in a terrarium are unpredictable, especially for less experienced keepers. Providing the proper environment and alleviating stress are too important to the health and well-being of reptiles and amphibians to take chances with mixing species.

If i have missed anything please add to it.
i HOPE this answers everyones questions about mixing of species!!!!!

Natasha

*Note I did NOT write this some one else from a different website did*

-Alex

*Here is the Website I got it from Tree Frogs - PEOPLE THAT ARE THINKING OF MIXING SPECIES OF FROGS READ THIS!!!

[beckdg]

well alex, i understand your point of view. the fact still remains that in the wild GOD didn't get it right either. if he wanted everything to co-exist he should have made humans stupid enough that we could not figure out how to endanger a whole damn planet. since we screwed up and will be killing everything within the next few generations it's our job to fix it. if we are not smart enough to put 2 species in the same tank how the hell are we to keep the equilibrium across the whole damn planet? as a matter of fact if we can't keep a frog with a newt how the hell did we figure out nuclear warfare? seems to me ignorance is more the problem here. i don't care how many degrees the person who wrote that has... a lot of people are missing the point. god mixed species that worked quite well... we screwed it up... we can fix it. i am not an advocate for a newb putting a bunch of things in a cage and dropping food in there, but this is a vivarium forum and the goal of having a mini-ecosystem is becoming very popular these days. i'd be alot more worried about people who buy little frog refuges to "grow their own frogs" in a tiny little basket than someone who is researching and asking how to mix species.

do us all a favor... check out how many posts chris has... notice he's a newbie on this forum. not only is this a place to go to to get help with your setups and animals alike this is also a means of social interaction. i, for one don't think that post has anything to do with social interaction at all. seems to me your views have out-weighed your social judgement and i think you need to take a step back and consider yourself in a new world where you may be clueless and asking questions and how'd you feel if someone answered your questions in such a manner leaving you still clueless as to the answer itself. i just don't think that was to friendly and definitely not a way to draw in new members that may be willing to help that can answer things you might have questions about.

as for the research, i have warned chris already... i've given him reference material and a warning that this very thing was going to happen over and over again. still the simple fact still remains that there are thousands of people out there that are trying combinations of the likes and are not searching out people to help... rather sticking things in a tank and replacing them when they die. chris obviously is not one of those people. he has come looking for help and answers before he does anything that might be considered stupid by those few of us that know better. i personally give him credit for that instead of frowning on him for wanting something that may be difficult. if he is given the benefit of the doubt who's to say that he will try anyway. in my experiences most people who do the research as chris is doing learn the differences and how hard it will be in the longrun and if they are not flamed usually come to the conclusion that it may just be too much work anyway. it is those we push away that stubbornly just go for it and throw things into a tank without figuring out their needs and fail over and over again.

i also want to note that a search on the web right now can obtain you thousands of hits on sites where you can see pics of other peoples setups where they are mixing species... old world with new world... carnivore with vegetarian... arboreal with aquatic... etc. etc. i suggest those that have responses like the post you've copied above spend some time getting to those people who are hearing nothing but praise for doing exactly what so many say cannot be done instead of backing an unknowing newb into a corner.

just the same as you claim your post is not an attack on our newb, but just another post you've copied i will say this post is not only meant for you. it is an answer to all those that think they know so much and only their views count to the point they can ostracize an unsuspecting, unknowing individual who comes to us not knowing that their dreams may never be a reality.

i am sorry if anyone takes this personal, yet something inside me tells me that if you do then this post got to who it needed to. also if you have taken offense to this post and want to save an animal from it's fate i would like to know exactly what you personally are doing to clean up our environment. you know it's kinda funny the same people who are flaming people for asking about mixing animals i never hear of any of them trying to cut down on waste. i have never once heard of someone saying don't buy that... it is packaged with materials that are known to cause cancer. i never hear those people say don't buy great stuff cause it will help deplete the ozone. i mean if we are going to kill off all the frogs in the world by dessimating their ecological systems and disposing of cancer causing agents in a way that they leach directly into the ocean... breaking down the ozone layer to the point that every animal in the world will need radiation treatment within the next 20 or so years why can't we enjoy it while we kill them... and maybe learn something in the process?

like i said this is not just aimed at one person, it just so happened that this was the straw that broke the camels back for me. i really think it's high time we start treating each other like people. if there was not the internet between you 2 i doubt this conversation would go nearly the same as it did. i think that is one thing many people don't take into consideration on forums. i wish we could all sit in a room together and discuss things. that would force people to think of their actions a little more... or maybe more relevant their reactions. i also think having a person right in front of you would make one realize ones statements may put one in a situation that one cannot get out of and that alone would lower the tones, forced opinions, and self righteousness that so often come out of such a conversation on the web.

again... i am not trying to offend anyone, just want people to think a little before offending someone for asking a question.

[Chu'Wuti]

Just to add my 2 cents . . . I agree with beck that taking into consideration another's lack of knowledge and thirst for knowledge and that allows discussion rather than just being a blanket condemnation is far more productive and pleasant. Having already responded to the same post by Alex on another thread, I won't repeat myself except to say I used to believe the same thing until I learned differently.

Also, one small correction--not all geckos are desert/arid species; there are many that are tropical or subtropical and require a great deal of humidity (e.g., many Phelsumas, and there are many more). An excellent source of information about various geckos: Global Gecko Association

That being said, I still would not try to mix PDFs and geckos, considering the toxins in PDFs skin that could endanger the geckos. Many geckos are extremely sensitive, and even handling can damage their skin and stress them to the point of illness.

However, I suppose--and here, I'm only speculating, so don't take this as any kind of guarantee for success--that (after ensuring that all other environmental needs are the same) if you obtained a completely arboreal gecko that only drinks water droplets from the leaves, you might be able to work such a combination out. Personally, I would not want to risk my animals or my investment with such a combination, but that's my personal decision.

[beckdg]

i will mention that the more common geckos and most likely to be found when searching for one would need much less moisture than a pdf. that was just the first and most obvious deterrant (sp) i could think of. i do think that a pdf and a gecko should be deterred. not because of the toxins in a pdf. this is where the education comes in. the most deadly frog in the world if i remember is a pdf (yellow) and it gets it's toxicity from it's diet... a diet we as hobbyists will not provide. this goes for fire belly toads and fire belly skinks as well. the thing is through captive breeding in only a couple generations the pdf can lose almost all of it's toxicity. this is one reason i posted... the person who posted (natasha) obviously never tested putting a "toxic species" in with another. it has been done successfully and it's been done over and over again. in the wild touching one could mean a dismal future for someone whereas in our tanks they are almost completely harmless. with a gecko and pdf's what i'd worry about is the gecko missing diner while the pdf was going at the same time and getting the pdf. geckos have sharp (albeit small) teeth and swallowing a juvenile pdf once in its mouth will be without a second thought.

note: the most common species i see that people ask about mixing is fire belly toads. the number 1 reason people say it's not possible is their toxicity which comes from their diet in the wild. one of my local pet stores has had anywhere from 10-40 fbt's in a 10 gal with about 2 gals of water and breeding guppies for over 2 years (same tank). the funny thing is that pet store is the only one that takes care of their animals to the point pj will only eat feeders from that store, nowhere else. it is also the only (out of atleast 12) pet store i will buy any fish, reptiles, rodents or birds from at all in my area.

my point is not only will he be bashed/flamed for thinking of this combination, but it will definitely be from people who have not tried and most likely because they got info like such that is posted here. i agree that toxicity can be an issue and that's why i'd buy from a breeder and not risk getting a wild caught. if you were able to get a w/c pdf and forgot to wear gloves when introducing him to his new home you would most likely not forget it again and those pretty colors/patterns might not be so attractive anymore. just my thoughts. i'm sure many will disagree, but will they do the research or depend on other hobbyists to do it for them?

BIG NOTE: chu... i know that if you were even semi-interested you would do the work... that's obvious. also, you are correct with the geckos, but he said gecko... not mediterranean, house, day or whatever gecko so i just threw out the obvious when it comes to the more common geckos. but i did give him a few places to start his searches and some guidelines on how to do so through pm... there's a good chance if he's looked he's found out by now that there are different types from different geological niches. i wanted him to know what he was doing before he got a list of species or bashed. i also very much see your point on erring on the side of caution. if you don't have proof it will work you are risking more than just a couple of dollars... a few lives and your sanity may also go out the window before you figure things out or even a good combination. also, i think i am going to bookmark that site... thanks.

so now it's time to educate... i have thrown in at least 3 links... chu has added to that... any other info provided would help... i mean care info, geological niches, wild vs pet care, links to specific species... yadda yadda... he will be the judge in whether or not he tries this regardless what we say so let's educate him enough to make his own decision... at least at that point if he still tries he will have the best chances of success... if he cares enough and gets into it enough he will probably come to the conclusion that pdf's and geckos do not mix... either way to make an intelligent decision he needs educating, so lets get it going.

thanks for your input chu... this could be a very interesting read very soon... hehehe

[chris lay]

Beck you are soooo much help. You warned me already about posting anything that had to do with mixing species becuase obviously people are verry opinionated on the matter. I do understand thier pont of view, im sure there are alot of people who just throw things togeather and se what happens but i dont think that you should just shoot people down, especialy with something that you didnt even wright. I my self have had manny snakes my whole life and am looking to up my hobbie now that i have a little extra time and my Red Tail just passed after a healthy 16 years of a wonderful life. I plan on doing much much much more reserch before i get started on anything and altho i have been reading plenty of literature on the net and from a few books i found at my local library but none of that info comes close to being as usefull as the input of others with the same interests. And like Wuti said you should take into consideration others thirst of lack of knowledge. I am here for knowlege not sh*ts and giggles.

And on a side note, Beck your whole first paragraph was right on the money!!! WE'll be lucky if we can pull two more generations out of this train wreck we call society lol. Once again thanx for all your help!!

[Chu'Wuti]

i will mention that the more common geckos and most likely to be found when searching for one would need much less moisture than a pdf.

If you're talking about leos or tokays, I definitely agree. But what about the gold dust day gecko (Phelsuma laticauda laticauda)? It has become pretty common as well. I have seen it for sale several times in our local pet stores, and it needs higher humidity and tropical conditions. Gold dust day gecko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See also Leaping Lizards Home Page and Gecko Ranch - Supplies, Breeds, Herpetology (the latter has a FAQ about Mixing Herps)

I also have another question. I too have read that diet is the primary source of the toxins for PDFs. However, I have also read that diet is not the only source of the toxins and that even CBB PDFs should be handled with caution because their skin still contains some toxins. That's why I err on the side of caution when considering PDFs in a mixture of species. I note that you state

through captive breeding in only a couple generations the pdf can lose almost all of it's toxicity

As this contradicts other sources I have seen, I'm wondering what your source is--I'm always open to additional info from a credible source. Also, have you read anything more about the level of toxins in the skin of PDFs fed a "safe" diet (generational decrease notwithstanding)?

And you're correct--I don't have any particular interest in PDFs, or in other frogs, for that matter! I like looking at them, and I've had some WC & raised tadpoles to frogs in the past, but I'm much more interested in geckos and snakes at this point in my life!